Reading Current Events

Nov 25, 2003 22:39 # 17299

Martin *** wants to note...

Open letter

100% | 8

Dear Henning,

since I produced all this mess by a public attack I think you deserve a public apology as well.

Its been a while since those events that lead to my absence of NAO, even worse, to total communication breakdown between you and me. And you know what, all that remains in the long run is this feeling of missing a friend. It doesn't matter anymore if I was right or wrong in Feb, all that really matters is the fact we stopped talking. And this question in me "Is it really worth it?" just keeps growing louder by the day. In fact there is more to my decision at that time than meets the eye.

There was this obvious topic we had a fight about. I wont go through it again, cause it's really of no significance anymore. Things have been said that better had left unsaid, that even wont be erased from the minds anymore. Friendship is about trust, and trust is a very fragile thing, hard to gain, easy to destroy. I know I did destroy 6 years of building trust by just this one post. And I am sorry.

Sorry not exactly about what I said, but how I did it, cause I do believe in friendship not being able to withstand criticism isn't worth to be called like that. But I never gave it a chance at all. I just loaded my guns, fired from safe distance and disappeared cowardly. Nothing that I'm exactly proud of today. And at the end of the day I only hit myself. Besides making a fool of myself, which I'm more or less used to, I only lost, no, not lost but crossed off another human being, whose opinions and views of things always were most valuable and important to me. I cleared away another friend from my life, one more to the chalk board, and YOU know what that means.

You're asking how to go on? I dont know. May be its just this selfish notion of missing you being the friend you've been over such a long period of time. I cannot - and I dont want to - just try and talk you back into something that isn't there anymore. I know what I did and I know we are - if AT ALL - starting from scratch again. All I want you to know at the moment is that I'm sorry about how things have happened. I dont expect you to come running with open arms, not at all, I KNOW what I've done to you, believe you me.

I cannot promise anyone to never act like this again, and I wont. Too many people have suffered the same fate as you meanwhile. And I do not understand myself on these occasions. It happens time and again that I hurt those people most that are closest to me, just as if I cannot stand anyone knowing too much about me or moving across a certain subconscious borderline that I cannot even name myself. But then again, my conscious mind wants it just the opposite way. Of COURSE I want to be close to people and share my thoughts and who and what I am. But too many caring hearts were eradicated during the last 5 years. What happened in Feb had definitely more to it than the obvious topic-reasons I told you about in the "announcement". I'm so sick of this Dr.Jekyll/Mr.Hide-thingie in me and I wish I would at least understand the reasons for it myself, but I dont. May be I'm just the wrong person to trust at all.

Sorry,
Martin

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Aug 09, 2004 07:49 # 25235

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Open letter

?% | 1

Beautifully written. But then again, you've always been an excellent writer. I can't wait to read the apologies to the other people you've fucked up the ass during your all-out attack.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Aug 09, 2004.

Aug 09, 2004 12:44 # 25243

Martin *** isn't happy...

Re: Open letter

?% | 1

To all "the other people I've fucked up the ass during my all-out attack"

If you consider yourself important enough to feel offended, all I have to tell you is this:

It was (and is) a personal issue between Henning and me. No matter how hard the side trumpet blowers try to horn in, it doesn't change anything about the fact, that noone else was ever involved, not in any action requiring an apology. I did talk to everyone *I* consider worth it, if you haven't been amongst them, you're waiting in vain.

Thanks for rehashing the issue after so long, great move!

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Aug 09, 2004 13:14 # 25244

null has all the information you need...

Re: Open letter

97% | 3

It was (and is) a personal issue between Henning and me.

I remember you directly accusing me of some pretty nasty things.*
On your great Announcement you made it look like MrCrash and RCD agree with your rant and support your accusations, both of which (in personal discussions) assured me that that's not the case at all.*

Of course I can't speak for them, or other people you may have pissed off, but as far as it concerns me, it would have been nice to hear that you didn't really mean it when you basically called me a harasser, blackmailer and liar out of the blue. No need to come crawling at my door with wet eyes and castigate yourself until I say I forgive you, no no no. Just "I didn't mean it" or something. But as it seems I'm just not important enough. We've always gotten along well, yet you and me have never been close friends like, say, you and Jaz. Maybe you apologise only to him because he's important enough to you, and I'm not. I can't say it makes me sad when you don't want to be best friends with me, and I know you too well to expect you to actually come knocking at my door (even in the purely hypothetical case that you wanted to). Took you long enough for your former best friend. Maybe I've just had to mention it for my own peace of mind or the sake of completeness.

great move!

Not as great as yours, but as you can see I'm improving!



---
* I'd like to cite a few mails supporting my claims, but unfortunately I don't have them around at the office, and most of them are in German anyways. If anybody is still interested in seeing them, let me know and I'll dig them out when I find the time.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Aug 09, 2004.

Aug 10, 2004 03:18 # 25280

Martin *** replies...

Re: Open letter

?% | 1

If you read the above letter carefully, you would have been able to find a spot, where it says, I did apologize for the HOW, NOT for the WHAT. If I did not apologize for what I said to the friend, what makes you think I would do it to a stranger, someone who keeps chipping in on things, that are none of his concern anyway? Allthemore, since you're standing on more than lose ground close to ridiculousness with your false accusations.

And what are you trying here? Trying to trap me in a flamewar to then accuse me of starting it, like you did with Frank?

Yes, I want to see those emails you offered as unsolicited proof for whatever point you have against me. I'm really eager to see it! May be you should have checked your mail archive and read them again BEFORE you put yourself in such a pathetic position. If you're referring to the March 20th/21st,03 mails, dont take the trouble to translate them, I got it done and ready, because everyone involved at that time did get copies of your barefaced blackmailing to hack/attack DSO, if we keep on talking about it. Dont forget to mention, that I never wrote an email to you, that was NOT in reply to yours, ...really out of the blue!

Show me one single spot, when I was talking about you in public, so if you think you have an issue with me, you could have done it in private. Or is this just a simple eye-for-an-eye revenge?

And what you mean I made it look the guys were supporting me? Just for your information: To have the "announcement" as ONE post was not MY idea, and everyone involved knew all other statements BEFORE I posted it. How did I get those of the others guys? Did I steel it in a sneak attack from their private HDs? Did I even write all those statements myself and signed them with wrong names? Or are you just trying to sow cheap mistrust? I got news for you: you're a lil late! The whole event is 1.5 years back, and noone but you takes any pride in it to warm it up again!

All you ever did was to follow the beaten track and interfering, when you haven't been asked. Why should I want to attack you? Why this defamation now, when you know exactly it has only been vice versa?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Aug 10, 2004 08:06 # 25290

null shakes his head...

Re: Open letter

100% | 4

If I did not apologize for what I said to the friend, what makes you think I would do it to a stranger, someone who keeps chipping in on things, that are none of his concern anyway?

Yeah, I know you didn't actually apologise for what you did. And (as said before) I didn't really expect an apology of yours coming my way. But as far as it concerns me, how exactly would that make it illegal for me to bring it up anyway?

Allthemore, since you're standing on more than lose ground close to ridiculousness with your false accusations.

Mhm.

Trying to trap me in a flamewar to then accuse me of starting it, like you did with Frank?

Look who's talking about false accusations. Why don't we talk about who started several attempts to actively mob out other users he didn't like?
Besides, as far as I remember, you weren't too friendly with frank either. All you actually objected was his exclusion from NAO.
This here discussion is about facts, man.

Yes, I want to see those emails you offered as unsolicited proof for whatever point you have against me.

I have an SMS conversation with MrCrash saying he didn't sign what you wrote (which he told you), and that he doesn't have any problems with Jaz.
I have a (rather long) mail from Amit/RCD, stating about the same.
I have a mail of you accusing me of blackmailing you (read more below).
I'll put them on the 'net somewhere. As said, I need time until the evening because I don't have them here at work.

because everyone involved at that time did get copies of your barefaced blackmailing to hack/attack DSO

Look, that's what I mean with false accusations (again).
(To all the uninvolved, I sent Martin a mail in reaction to a rant of his about what horrible things the bad bad people at NAO did to expel one poor unwanted user. My mail basically said "look, we both know that we can piss on your leg, and you can piss on ours. We have no interest in doing so, it would be nice if you could do us the same favour." He obviously interpreted this as a hidden threat in an attempt to blackmail him into shutting up. Well, he never listened to me when I tried to clarify.)
I've thought about that mail of mine pretty much, and I've come to three conclusions.

  1. It could have been written in a better, less ambiguous way. BUT:

  2. How it is interpreted greatly depends on the reader's expectances. You think I'm acting like an asshole, you might think it's a blackmail attempt. You think I have the least bit of honor, you will assume it's a request to put the weapons down. Or at the very least it would cause the reader to ask for a clarification!

  3. If it actually was a blackmail attempt, the only logical conclusion is that I'm a really really low asshole as well as incredibly stupid (because the attacks I mentioned, note this, obviously work both ways).

  4. Thinking about it, you should come to the conclusion that I know you well enough to know that a blackmail attempt that pathetic and cheap would never succeed in bullying you - quite the opposite would happen! (And wasn't I right?)

  5. You could have listened to me when I tried to clarify the situation.

  6. I can't count.

Turning the mail into a 100% unambiguous water-proof legal document wasn't important to me at that time, because in all honesty, I never thought you'd assume 2. and 3. to be remotely possible, and that you know that I know you well enough to consider point 4. I mean, we had a fight, but we were both involved in heated debates previously, and there's a border that usually just doesn't get crossed. You should have known me that well.

Do me a favor, read the mail in question again and, just for once, pretend I'm not blackmailing you but just asking you to return the favor of not attacking. I'd be interested in how you'd have reacted then.

And what you mean I made it look the guys were supporting me?

Every user I asked who had read your Announcement thought it was one statement by a group, with different people writing about the same story from different points of view.

All you ever did was to follow the beaten track and interfering

I've voiced my opinion. Sorry if that opinion didn't suit you for once. After all you never did mind me 'interfering' when it was in your support, remember?

when you haven't been asked.

Sue me.


---
This absolutely doesn't fit into this post (or the discussion as a whole), but I feel I should mention it anyway for the sake of completeness (or maybe peace on NAO).
I've had a short conversation with Jaz yesterday, and he was worried that I'm seriously pissed off, including all the consequences of me being seriously pissed off. I'm not, and I didn't want to create that impression. (I know I didn't bother to clarify this in my first post, but what the hell.) I've said what I've wanted to say. I'm satisfied.
I assume you'll want to reply to this post. Go ahead. But (if possible) do keep in mind that unless you get really abusive, I won't reply back. Because your pighead is legendary, and mine is considerable, too. If we don't agree on anything else, then at least on the assumption that if we both wait for the other to give up and stop writing, NAO will eventually crash under the load of our rebuttals and re-rebuttals. And quite frankly, I think it's too nice a place to risk that.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Aug 10, 2004 13:10 # 25295

Martin *** replies...

Re: Open letter

95% | 2

Sue me.

As you wish.

And (as said before) I didn't really expect an apology of yours coming my way.

You know, with your first message here to a 9 months old thread I thought "Oh lord, the shadows of the past keep haunting me" and AGAIN I felt bad for the things as they happened 1.5 years ago, because just so much of the initial feeling about NAO was lost then. I was searching my mind to remember, what I actually did to YOU in person, but I found nothing. So I thought "Mmmh, may be in my clumsiness I hit more china than it was intended". And with your posts getting personal attacks I started digging in the dirt, because I could not remember anything talking to you IN PERSON other those 3 unsolicited emails YOU sent ME and me replying to it 2 times. So I started reading old mail, private as well as the admin list, posts here on NAO and actually remembering the complete incident in detail again. And I found out an amazing thing, that really wasn't clear to me, when this started. If ANYONE between the two of us deserves an apology then it's ME. But I came back here without any bad feelings whatsoever. I just didn't expect you to REALLY start this (previously announced!) defamation.
Actually I'm still waiting - and I'm saying this without any provocation, I'm honestly interested to know which passages you mean, cause I cannot find *any*, may be they really slipped me - I'm still waiting to learn about, when I called you "harasser, blackmailer and liar out of the blue". You are wrong, I WILL apologize RIGHT away, if ANYTHING of what you said is true and I just cant remember it anymore, so I actually ask your help here.

Why don't we talk about who started several attempts to actively mob out other users he didn't like?

We could gladly do that. Unlike yourself I'm NOT trying to veil being a part of it. Go and read the mails exchanged on the admin list again BEFORE you reply to this and force me to make that public, too.

Besides, as far as I remember, you weren't too friendly with frank either.

Right.

All you actually objected was his exclusion from NAO.

Exactly. That is the one and only point the whole incident was all about.

I have an SMS conversation with MrCrash saying he didn't sign what you wrote (which he told you), and that he doesn't have any problems with Jaz.

Did I sign what Mr.Crash wrote?

I have a (rather long) mail from Amit/RCD, stating about the same.

Did I sign what Amit wrote?

Every user I asked who had read your Announcement thought it was one statement by a group, with different people writing about the same story from different points of view.

Oh, so its my fault people cant read properly, or what?
As it was and still IS clear to see for ANYONE, who wants to see it, the different people signed ONLY their respective parts. There was NOT one line at the bottom that held all signatures! So, what you're actually stating here is JUST OBVIOUS and noone ever tried to make it look any different! Still you think so. What is it in your opinion that *I* did do wrong with that (besides posting something like that at all)? Again, it was not my idea to have it as ONE post.

because everyone involved at that time did get copies of your barefaced blackmailing to hack/attack DSO

Look, that's what I mean with false accusations (again).
My mail basically said "look, we both know that we can piss on your leg, and you can piss on ours. We have no interest in doing so, it would be nice if you could do us the same favour."

It would have been nice and helpful to judge the situation, if you had quoted it completely. I know...you're at work...so let me help you:

You sent me a mail on March 20th 2003 commenting an article I wrote and you read on DSO containing these lines:

Remember what happened on NAO a few weeks ago, Frank?
The decision to exclude a member.
Beginning a deliberate, planned flamewar.
For the purpose to provoke the needed reactions.
The reactions that actually justify the exclusion.
There was the decision before the deed.
A preventive first strike.

Excerpt from Bernie's mail:

"Wie dem auch sei, was passiert ist ist passiert. Ich wollt auch nur meiner Hoffnung Ausdruck verleihen, dass du vielleicht irgendwann mal aufhörst solchen Müll über Henning oder mich oder wen auch immer zu verbreiten. Wir tun dir schliesslich denselben Gefallen. [..] Frank ist wieder bei NAO am mitschreiben... fehlt noch was zu deinem Glück, oder macht's dir einfach Freude dir solche Geschichten aus den Fingern zu saugen? Schau mal, es gibt etwa eine Million Möglichkeiten dir/euch ans Bein zu pinkeln - Horrorgeschichten über dich verbreiten, ne Hetzkampagne starten, DSO auf 20 verschiedene Arten abschiessen, ... von mir aus auch "DailySmile" als Handelsmarke eintragen lassen und die Domain annektieren, was weiss ich. Keiner hat das bis jetzt gemacht, weil sowas macht man halt nicht. Es wär schön wenn dieser Respekt auf Gegenseitigkeit beruhen würde."

"By all means, what happened has happened. I just wanted to express my hope you might stop some time soon to spread such crap about Henning or me or whoever. We're doing the same favor to you. [..] Frank has returned to NAO and writes again, so what's still lacking for you to be happy? Or are you just having fun to invent those stories about people? Look, there are about one million ways to piss on your leg - telling defamatory stories about you, starting a harassment campaign, shooting down DSO in 20 different ways, if it has to be getting the trademark "dailysmile" and annex the domain, I can think of many many more, whatever. Noone did that until now, cause you just dont do things like that. It would be nice if you'd show the same respect."

Am I not entitled to think with this, your attacks in this thread, you've finally made your threats come true?
I will not comment that any further, but leave it to the (non-existent) reader to determine WHICH of your three conclusions applies here.

Trying to trap me in a flamewar to then accuse me of starting it, like you did with Frank?

Look who's talking about false accusations.

From the same mail: Bernie, 20.03.03
Nicht Henning war's der in dem einen Flamewar diese Reaktionen provoziert hat, sondern ich.
It wasn't Henning who provoked that reaction in that particular flamewar, but me.

Do me a favor, read the mail in question again and, just for once, pretend I'm not blackmailing you but just asking you to return the favor of not attacking. I'd be interested in how you'd have reacted then.

I would gladly do that, if I only understood HOW you feel attacked AT ALL? I ask you again, when did I EVER mention your name in public? What exactly makes you feel offended? Are you so close to the project that writing the letters "NAO" makes you personally feel offended? I didn't and dont understand the need to write that mail at all, because the lines in question you felt worthy to comment the way you did, didn't contain any other name than Frank's, to whom I replied.

You know, lurking and reading NAO lately felt good, because there are some really nice and intelligent people around these days. That's why I decided to come back more frequently again. I'm glad to hear you're not seriously pissed off, so there is no danger of shutting down NAO due to lacking the necessary hardware (or getting blackmailed with it). But I tell you what: *I* am seriously pissed off, because you've made it in NO TIME to revive all those long lost and forgotten feelings of childish street gossip again, which is actually good for nothing but the writer's Egos and is read by noone but the 2 or 3 people involved. So for the sake of peace on NAO and my health I should better refrain from posting and just stay the lurker I've been. If that was your initial intention for starting this, Bernie, congratulations, you did it. Sorry to have had trust in time to be able to cure wounds, mine did, but you reopened them again.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Aug 10, 2004 14:07 # 25297

null replies...

Re: Open letter

92% | 2

We could gladly do that. Unlike yourself I'm NOT trying to veil being a part of it. Go and read the mails exchanged on the admin list again BEFORE you reply to this and force me to make that public, too.

Go ahead if you like. I have no hard feelings if you do. I've told you before that I stand by what I've said/written.
Yes, I voted for the banning of frank at that time. I later changed my mind (that should be in those admin-list mails as well, IIRC) and voted for giving him an un-ignorable warning. If anybody has a problem with that, raise your hand and we can talk about it.

when I called you "harasser, blackmailer and liar out of the blue".

Well, it's hard to recall all the details, but all in all it was mainly because of my mail(s) you chose to interprete as a blackmailing attempt at all cost. (See below)

Speaking of mails, I've dug them up in the meantime. Here is an SMS conversation (red=me, blue=MrCrash), and here are the mails we exchanged. (Unneeded header lines and last names have been deleted for privacy reasons.) I still owe you the excepts(s) from the Amit/RCD mail(s), which will take a bit longer.

Oh, so its my fault people cant read properly, or what?

I still think it's the impression that counts. And it was you who posted the whole thing, so allow me to take the "it wasn't my idea" with a grain of salt.

I know...you're at work...so let me help you:

Thanks for translating the mails for me, a lot of work I don't have to do now.
One thing tho, if you allow:

[...] Noone did that until now, cause you just dont do things like that.

(Cited from my mail)

I'm sure you translated this sentence to the best of your knowledge and with no intention of changing its meaning, but I still feel it doesn't exactly say what it's supposed to. The trick (and perhaps the crux of the whole matter) is that it doesn't mean "Look, these are the ways I'm gonna fuck you up if you don't do what I say" (as you seem to believe), but rather "Look, I probably could do those things, but I won't, cause you just don't do things like that. Now it would be nice if you could leave us (NAO) alone, too." That's also what I tried to explain you in the following two mails you weren't apt to consider honest.
To be honest (and repeat myself once more), I was mildly shocked to discover that you actually thought I'd do something like that.

In a mail to you (sorry for the size):

[...] In diesem Fall haben Sie wahrscheinlich einfach zuviel in meinen Schriftsatz hinein interpretiert.
Mal abgesehen davon dass ich mir keine wirklichen Erfolgschancen ausgerechnet hätte: sorry, aber sowas mach ich nicht. Ich hab auch nen Funken Anstand und Taktgefühl, und mit Erpressung hätt ich ja wohl nichts gewonnen. Ich wollt ja darlegen dass und warum ich sauer bin, nicht nen Bandenkrieg anfangen.
Ergo --> Übersetzung: "Niemand hat solch kleinliche Angriffe nötig, wir lassen euch in Ruhe, es wär schön wenn dir/euch das auch gelingen würde." Von Fresse einschlagen kann da nicht die Rede sein. Ausserdem wär's ja wohl dämlich, euch zugunsten von NAO mit DoS-Attacken drohen zu wollen wenn NAO fast genau so anfällig drauf ist, oder? Ich kann nur hoffen dass du mich nicht ernsthaft für so dumm und böswillig hältst.

In that case you've probably just interpreted too much into my pleading.
Apart from the fact that I wouldn't really have expected it to work: sorry, but I just don't do such things. After all I've got at least a spark of decency and tact, and by blackmailing I wouldn't have won anything. All I wanted was explain that and why I'm pissed off, not start a gang war.
Ergo --> translation: "We're all above such small-minded attacks, it would be nice if you could manage that, too." Nobody's talking of ass-kicking here. Besides it would obviously be a pretty dim-witted idea to threaten you with DoS attacks in favor of NAO, when NAO is almost as vulnerable to them, wouldn't it? I can only hope that you don't really think I'm so stupid and malicious.

That's what "sowas macht man nicht" is supposed to mean.

Am I not entitled to think with this, your attacks in this thread, you've finally made your threats come true?

You're entitled to think whatever you like, but that doesn't mean it's true.
Look, man, whether you believe it or not, no matter how pissed off I am, I have certain standards and a sense of decency. Call it honour if you wish. If you had believed me that when we exchanged those mails, all would have been well since then.
(See it this way. NAO runs on my server. If I wanted to shut you up, or exclude you from NAO, or whatever my twisted mind may come up with, what would stop me from simply blocking access for *.berlikomm.net? Why the hassle of a public argument when I could silently and safely lock you out in about 2 minutes? What, if not decency, would keep me from tapping the database to change your password to 'iamnullstowelboy' and then use your account to write flames and randomly insult people? Or I could also have blocked your account without Jaz even noticing if he didn't bother to check. But hey, surprise, I didn't. And I wouldn't, because I'm not a complete asshole. Thanks for acknowledging that.)

Sorry to have had trust in time to be able to cure wounds, mine did, but you reopened them again.

Well, what can I say. I guess I just had to mention it for my own peace of mind. Call me an egoist if it helps. Anyway I won't bother you any longer unless you ask me to respond.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Aug 10, 2004.

Aug 16, 2004 04:21 # 25487

Bunk *** isn't happy...

Re: Open letter

89% | 5

Well, it looks like Martin has left NAO again. What can I say null, except thanks a lot for that. Thanks, and congradulations. You WON. Because it's not enough that someone goes away for so long, then apologizes publicly and to everyone, and even awknoledges that he hurt more people than he could issue personal apologies to, no it's not enough at all.

What really kills me is the timing. You chose not to reply to Martin's open letter when he first wrote it, oh no, because then it would have been to relevant, too fresh. No, you had to wait until he made a decent effort to come back, to move on, because... ?

Seriously null, I have always liked and respected you, but your (and Martin's) apparent failure to resolve this overblown issue is baffleing.

And before you say it, yes I wasn't there, yes it was before my time.

And the more I read about it, the more I think it should have stayed there.

I just had to mention it for my own peace of mind

Ditto. :p

"History is more or less bunk." - Henry Ford

This post was edited by Bunk on Aug 16, 2004.

Aug 16, 2004 07:25 # 25491

null isn't happy...

Re: Open letter

97% | 3

then apologizes publicly and to everyone, and even awknoledges that he hurt more people than he could issue personal apologies to

He publicly apologised to one person. And if you read his apology again, you'll notice that he explicitly states that he apologises for how he did it, but not what he did. If that's your idea of a public apology to everyone, well, so be it. But (quoting for Martin's post),

I did talk to everyone *I* consider worth it, if you haven't been amongst them, you're waiting in vain.

doesn't exactly comfort me or make me feel valued.

You chose not to reply to Martin's open letter when he first wrote it, oh no

It's all because I'm an intrigant and calculating asshole. Ask Martin.
Actually I didn't write it back then because he had left NAO, remember? I didn't think he was serious about coming back so I saw no sense in replying and pretty much forgot about it.
Am I sorry for the, uh, inconvenience it caused for other NAOees? Yes. Am I sorry for Martin? In all honesty, no, he had it coming. Would I have written exactly the same reply at the exactly same time if I had known what it causes? Most likely not. But I can't change it now.
But believe whatever you want. It's a free country.

but your (and Martin's) apparent failure to resolve this overblown issue is baffleing.

Look, I'm not happy about how the whole thing turned out either (and haven't been ever since Martin 'announced' to leave NAO, because we used to get along very well), but if you slander me and basically tell me into my face what an incredibly low asshole you think I am, then state that I'm not worth considering an apology, you can't expect me to be all nice and forgiveness. Makes sense?

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Aug 16, 2004.

Aug 16, 2004 09:41 # 25501

ginsterbusch *** replies...

Re: Open letter

?% | 1

So lets discuss about the discussion who's been the bigger asshole - how productive! ;->

Some random thoughts about this topic by this humble person nick-named 'ginsterbusch':
- maybe Martin would have gone so far - after a while! - to apologize to OTHER folks on here
- bitching around doesnt help anybody, and if you're angry about something somebody else did to you, but know you would complicate the situation much more anyway if you tried to make a statement: just shut the fuck up ;)
- hey! maybe _I_ should apologize for the crap I wrote once upon a time! - so: everybody does make mistakes, hope you dont mind anymore today.

but if you slander me and basically tell me into my face what an incredibly low asshole you think I am, then state that I'm not worth considering an apology, you can't expect me to be all nice and forgiveness. Makes sense?

so maybe you just could have waited for it to appear in the other person's mind?! praeventionsmassnahme? I hope not.
like I mentioned before, bitching around doesnt help anybody, especially NOT the person who DOES it!

or to say it on other words: "so ein schuss kann ganz schnell nach hinten los gehn" :-/

but to me, the most important question is: why did both of you battle this flamewar on THIS site? have you not been able to use simple primitive goddamn mail?!

lazy bunch!

cu, w0lf.

ps: yes, I know - essentially I'm just repeating myself.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Aug 16, 2004.

Aug 16, 2004 10:04 # 25504

null isn't happy...

Re: Open letter

?% | 1

I'm all for letting this topic rest, but never mind.

so maybe you just could have waited for it to appear in the other person's mind?

Obviously it didn't, or better, it wasn't considered worth it. And you couldn't exactly say he hasn't had enough time to think about it if he wanted, could you?

why did both of you battle this flamewar on THIS site?

Hey, 1. it's definitely not the first flamewar on this site, and 2. it should be pretty much over by now. Except we decide to keep bitching about how much bitching is going on.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Aug 17, 2004 14:17 # 25551

Bunk *** replies...

Re: Open letter

?% | 2

Seeing as this issue appears to be resolved, I'm all for letting this R.I.P. I just want to say that when I said this...

then apologizes publicly and to everyone, and even awknoledges that he hurt more people than he could issue personal apologies to

... I was refering to, from Martin's letter, this:

Too many people have suffered the same fate as you meanwhile... It happens time and again that I hurt those people most that are closest to me, just as if I cannot stand anyone knowing too much about me or moving across a certain subconscious borderline that I cannot even name myself... too many caring hearts were eradicated during the last 5 years.

Anyway, that's all.

"History is more or less bunk." - Henry Ford

Aug 09, 2004 13:59 # 25248

Orchid *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Open letter

71% | 3

It seems I also am not worth it to being talked to. I don't expect an apology because you haven't done anything to me, but at least it would've been nice not just disappearing of the screen for two years without at least sometimes saying hello or something like that. Well, maybe I should've written that personally to you, I don't know. I can understand why null is angry, so maybe you should have a talk to him?

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Aug 10, 2004 21:55 # 25305

ginsterbusch *** shakes his head...

Re: Open letter

84% | 6

So, I dont want to read all of this thread, but:

All of us have made mistakes, many we are sorry for, so its nice when you can talk about and regret them, but even more important is to actually learn something out of this!

Could [b]both of you[/b[ please do the same (math)?

Thanks again,
over and out ;),
cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Aug 10, 2004.

Aug 14, 2004 10:41 # 25439

MelMel *** replies...

Re: Open letter

67% | 3

Good lord, i leave NAO for a week and the shit hits the fan. this debate really has nothing to do with me so i'm just going to...

*vow never to piss off null or martin*

eeep *runs and hides*
-Mel

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

Aug 16, 2004 13:45 # 25509

Martin *** replies...

Apologies

100% | 4

the other people you've fucked up the ass

accusing me of some pretty nasty things.

called me a harasser, blackmailer and liar out of the blue

you slander me and basically tell me into my face what an incredibly low asshole you think I am

Bernie, I asked you THREE times to explain to me what I did wrong to you to launch this - even in my absence ongoing, previously announced - campaign here. And those were serious and honest questions, because I didn't understand, what this was all about. All you came up with was:

Well, it's hard to recall all the details, but all in all it was mainly because of my mail(s) you chose to interprete as a blackmailing attempt at all cost.

I apologize for feeling blackmailed.

I have certain standards and a sense of decency. Call it honour if you wish.

I apologize for completely failing to see that after this.

I still think it's the impression that counts.

I ESPECIALLY apologize for the impression I've made you give of yourself here!

And I apologize to all the other not involved people, Carolyn, Tamara, Amit, Wolf and whoever feels still left out, for not giving a sign of live, when you expected it or even asked for it. I've been and am going through some major changes in my life, of which some of you do know a few bits. But it was never my intention to share this with the world, not in public, nor in private. So, since I completely lack the ability to "smalltalk", I just played the hermit again. I'm not saying those times are over yet or ever will be, but yes, after this you are right, you DO deserve an apology. Bear in mind, what I said in the above letter 9 months ago: may be I'm just the wrong person to trust at all.

IHBT, thank you.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Aug 16, 2004 14:13 # 25510

null replies...

Re: Apologies

95% | 2

I apologize for feeling blackmailed.

I apologize for completely failing to see that after this.

I ESPECIALLY apologize for the impression I've made you give of yourself here!

And I apologize to all the other not involved people,

What can I say, besides I'd never have expected something like this (and I mean this in a positive way). Coming from you, I assume it's not mocking me but meant serious. That means a lot to me.

Now, in the interest of equality, I guess it's my turn.

I apologise if I spoiled your return to NAO for you. You've always been a great contributor (and comrade in arms during oh so many discussions on rating). I haven't forgotten that over our little dispute... and it was never my intention to keep you off NAO or something.

I apologise if I gave you the impression that you've done something unforgivable, and for which God, Allah and the winds should punish you eternally and with biblical cruelty. (I never mentioned them, but hey you never know. It's the impression that counts, right?)

Also, I guess I could have written the first mail in a slightly nicer manner. Sorry about that, it was because I was just so pissed off. I won't go into detail as you know the story pretty well.

I've already told this to a bunch of people, but I suppose everybody on NAO deserves to hear it:
Sorry for causing such a stir on NAO. Despite my feelings or intentions, had I known what my first post causes, I wouldn't have written it that way.

IHBT, thank you.

Whatever that means.

In the end you always know better, eh? :-)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Aug 16, 2004.

Aug 16, 2004 14:34 # 25513

gentledeepwaters *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Apologies

97% | 5

Martin, you never owed me an apology. You did the right thing, maybe the wrong way, but you did it. I was proud of you.

After reading Null's latest, I assume the testosterone is clearing from the site and the "dick waving", is coming to an end finally.

We all have busy and changing lives, and this site is NOT about "personalities" but people. So please do contribute to it at least once in a while. Don't be hermiting again.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


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