Reading Ideas

Feb 02, 2002 11:43 # 1966

Martin *** mindlessly drivels...

Question about life, universe and everything

95% | 2

And the answer is NOT 42, thank you.

If

- earth's orbit around the sun wasn't so perfectly well circled
- earth was a ridiculously small distance closer to the sun
- earth was a ridiculously small distance farer away from sun
- earth was a ridiculously small amount bigger
- earth was a ridiculously small amount smaller
- earth's ratio of land and water was different by a ridiculously small amount
- earth's atmosphere hadn't this brilliant ability to filter out lethal cosmic rays
- earth's atmosphere hadn't this brilliant ability to burn incoming bullets
- (come on, you can think of a thousand conditions more)

life as we know it wouldn't exist.

So, please, the next time someone asks for a wonder, tell him to go to the bathroom and have a look in the mirror!!

If you think about it, you might be tempted to take into consideration the existance of a super natural being who all set it up exactly as it is. You got my full respect, if you believe in it (but not, if you take it as justification to deny your own responsibilty for your deeds).
But a look into the sky tells us different. Suns are born and die as well. Our own sun will die in some whatever million years. Its just a mere average star of which there are countless numbers out there. The universe has a start in time and an end and it is by no means of infinite size. Its still expanding. So if something expands there must be room to expand to, room that is not yet part of this universe. But what is it then? Someday the universe will stop expanding and falling together again, with all known masses (and unknown which make more than 90% of the universe) meeting at one point. Spacetime will cease to exist. But what then? Will it all start again with the big bang. Maybe we're already in the 3628th repetition of this big bang/expansion/falling together/blob-thingie. Maybe our understanding of time as a floating expiration is just wrong, maybe our perception of time is just wrong cause of the ridiculously short period we are watching it (as mankind). Anyway, I cant believe in any kind of form/intelligence/God, whatever you wonna call it, to set it all up for us (not to speak of specific religions, who believe to be the "Chosen Few"!).
But I did not mean to talk about religions in the first place.
There are scientist out there who claim the conditions for life to exists have to be exactly as they are, temperature, gravity, light, atmosphere, chemical elements. Any small change about the parameters would kill any sort of life at once. It seems to be true, if you think about the conditions I mentioned above. They also claim if there is any other lifeform out there in the universe, it has to be similar to us. Seems logical, if you accept the first thesis. So they are searching for mere earth-like planets (which should make earth-like noises for example). Now I'm sitting here at my desk watching these characters on the screen, that make perfectly sense to me, but would not even be noticed by my cat sitting on my left arm watching me and complaining every now and then when I move my arm too much. So looking at those characters I ask myself, who am I to question those theories at all? I never studied physics or astrophysics, nor biology, nor chemistry, not even mathematics, but still for me there seem to be some weird points in this argumentation. Just take the temperature for example. Life (as we know it) needs water, water in its liquid form. This requires a temperature between 0 and 98 degrees Celsius. And now have a look at the known temperature scale. As we are told (I got no evidence to prove it) the lowest possible temperature is 0 Kelvin, which makes some -270 C (? dont know exactly, sorry). But I never heard of any limits to high temperatures. We speak of some billion degrees C in the corona of the sun. Really got no idea if there's a limit at all. Now, I'd say a level of 0 to 100 C is pretty much on the lowest possible scale and in addition a pretty minute window, if you ask me. What we call hot and cold is not even a noticable change on the lower end of the scale. So if we assume there is other life out there in the universe, isn't it more likely to develop in some more average conditions, lets say with a base temperature of 100 Million degrees C? But then again, what is the average temperature? All the space between solar systems should be somewhat cold, not to say at absolute zero...
What I really want to say is this: I think we're rather a product of our conditions. If earth was some 1000K miles closer to the sun, we'd probably call 50 degrees C freezing and 80 C hot, dont know. Evolution made us to what we are. If some million years ago this huge hunk of stone would just pass by earth and not hit it, maybe today any offspring of TRex might sit here at the desk and hit the keyboard while any part of a mammal spluttering in his oven, if there were any mammal at all.
I mean, is life any more than an accident?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Feb 02, 2002 21:47 # 1968

gentledeepwaters *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

No it is not an accident according to a couple of my friends, one is silicon based lifeform, the other kinetic energy only, we three believe each lifeform had either, the happy chance of just the perfect ingredients to support our form of life.....or possibly...a creator who prepared the way.....rotf...and we.....cough....akkk......chuckle...sniff....all three believe, the majority of our beings, ain't gonna know squat for certain till we die or "cease to be" (in one of our case's). So we just kinda follow some common sense rules, to make our stay here pleasant, with the other's of our type....that old saw "Do unto to others, as you wanna be done too" Now, whatever religion you wanna get into (sorry, but couldn't figure out how to get around talking about it, cause is like taxes, it's out there) depends, on basically how you are most comfortable with it, meets your needs, or God forbid, you had it crammed down your throat, so you don't go looking for another way....Cause push come to shove......they were all set up by humans just like us.....cept they were fanatic about it...based on happenings??, based on stories passed down the ages?? In all the cultures on earth...there is some kind of superior being....so it must be a definite need.....I have my belief...it fits me...it gives me comfort at times, I can tell it anything, I can ask it anything, I have even raged against it, but I digress here. Having had the opportunity to be a witness to many deaths, and forms of deaths, from sudden to slow, of all ages of humans and also births.....there is another plane or place...also have witnessed a few times when death should have happened! should have!...no way not to come......and didn't....I feel the meaning of life, is living it for other humans...not things..not power..those things are gathered only to be used to help other humans...we have a space of time to do the best or worst we can for ourselves, and others....but we choose....our space of time, gives history to the ones coming...a technical leg up.....a new thought....we humans are reaching for something...I think we must...why?? Grins......I have no clue....maybe in the next life???

Oh, and yeah those guys who measure all this stuff and try to find why and what and how.....that seems to be a human need also...

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

This post was edited by gentledeepwaters on Feb 02, 2002.

Feb 09, 2002 21:17 # 2024

AbInitio * mindlessly drivels...

The Meaning of Life?

98% | 4

;   The question posed appears to be: What is the meaning of life? Great question and one that’s been posed often.

I’ve posed the question to myself countless numbers of times, but it always seems that whenever I have an answer that I’m comfortable with (usually arrived at by repeated questioning to the point of exhaustion and frustration), my answer is shortly proven incorrect in the most opposing way possible.

What am I “supposed” to do?

~ I live for other people, and somehow my life falls apart through neglect.
~ I shut out other people to “become whole (?),” and I encounter a growing hole of loneliness. (That hurt, but the lessons learned about both self and other people have proven invaluable and the rate of growth was astonishing.)
~ Okay then…balance. It must have something to do with balance. Then I look up and see that the scales have tipped outrageously.
~ Happiness? When I go for the short term, the long term seems to find some kind of annihilation. Plodding my way to the lifelong dream creates a mess of immediate displeasures.
~ Love? When I’ve tried to choose it, it hasn’t chosen back. When it seeks me, my feelings have not been reciprocal. Fine. I now know I don’t get to decide on love.
~ Religion? Leap of faith is not my style; my belief is that there should be a firm how & why behind an action or decision, not some vague commandment from some mystical being whose existence can’t be proven, but rather just has to be assumed.
~ Science then? Sure as heck doesn’t explain some of the oddities out there – especially people.
~ Art, music, creativity? Playing the guitar is a great feeling, but it won’t pay the bills.
~ How about work? Two to three weeks of 80+ is my limit…critical overload becomes imminent.
~ What about the whole theory of living each day to the fullest? That makes for a wonderful today and a very valuable feeling of accomplishment when my head hits the pillow, but I generally find that tomorrow is shot to hell. 3-4 days in a row of doing what I want when I want while maintaining what I have to do means I’m going to have a day of minimal productivity while I recover.

Whatever mixtures I’ve tried have run the gamut of possible outcomes. Maybe one day I’ll come across just the right recipe at just the right time and have some kind of solid answer that works for me. To date, I can only say I’ve occasionally had feelings that I’ve gotten somewhere near the ballpark, if not actually in it.

What I’m noticing lately, though, is interesting.

The sun rises and sets regularly. Gravity stays constant. A minute is always 60 seconds.

At the same time, the days are now getting longer. All of life’s weights seem lighter when I’m happy. Time flies or drags based on the amusement of the current activity.

Variables and paradoxes within constants and static structures. I guess what I’m getting at is that, if the meaning of life can be understood, then I don’t want to understand it. A guidebook would be nice sometimes, but creating my own has been challenging (in a good way) enough so far. With as many details and aspects and perspectives and activities and thought patterns and lifestyles and emotions {ad infinitum} as there are, I’m getting enough enjoyment out of my little pinprick of a point on this rock in this time with whatever path I choose to want to figure out what it all means.

This life is here now and, from all I’ve seen so far, will continue to be here tomorrow and next month and sometime next decade, too (knock on wood). What’s it mean? Your guess is as good or better than all of mine, but, through thick or thin, all I know is I’ve gotta keep living it for my limited time only. Somehow or another, that answer, or lack thereof, is enough for me.

~

This post was edited by AbInitio on Feb 09, 2002.

Feb 09, 2002 21:25 # 2025

AbInitio * mindlessly drivels...

Re: The Meaning of Life?

Wow! I just reread that. In retrospect, it seems I found the LONG way to say, “To me, Life just is and I don’t really care what it means.”

Feedback?

A wise woman once began to teach me the art of brevity. I wish those lessons hadn’t been so brief.

;-)

~

Feb 09, 2002 21:41 # 2026

Martin *** replies...

Re: The Meaning of Life?

What shall I say, but 'wow' as well!

I have to read it again some more times and let it rest in my mind for a few hours/days maybe, but you sure get response!
For now I just want to thank you for taking the subject serious and making your own mind about it. Finally...I gave up hope already there is somebody out there to seriously exchange thoughts on this. Thx.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Feb 10, 2002 23:50 # 2038

Alekseji ** replies...

Re: The Meaning of Life?

?% | 1

Whats the meaning of life? Perhaps you should first define what IS life?

- emotions: do you need emotions to be alive? what about plants - do they really FEEL or only react on environmental / artificial influences?

-spirit/mind: do you need mind? what's the difference between the brain and a silly, "stupid" computer chip? everything is based on "I" and "0"... electonic impulses, a code... where is the mind? WHAt is the mind?

- Biologically, we're only supposed to pass our genes... we can die after we've reproduced ourselves, we're worthless then. Is this life?

Science, supposed to give answers on all of our questions, failed. We have a free will... we're more than "I" and "0"... we're mor than a reproducing-machine.
But what are we then?
Why are people good or evel?
Is there really a God? Are we only a part of an cosmic game of chess?
We think we're the crown of the creation. we think out there is nothing we can't reach. But it dosn't matter how self complacent we are, we ARE SUPPOSED to fail to give an aswer to: WHO ARE WE AND WHY ARE WE

The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.

Feb 17, 2002 13:29 # 2085

Martin *** throws in his two cents...

Re: The Meaning of Life? <long and personal>

94% | 2

Thats a pretty good approach to answer this burning question about the meaning of life for yourself, rather any individual. In fact I would have answered similar three year ago, if I had the talent to express my thoughts as clear to the point as you did here. I'm really impressed (and a bit envious of course) someone is able at all to summarize his experiences in so few words, but yet so clearly. What an honor to share it with us.

But (you guessed its gonna come) meanwhile I disaggree. I cant isolate a single point in your argumentation where I'd say No actually, but its the conclusion.

I'm still not quite sure whether or not I should bother you with my personal history here, but to make my point clear I have to explain one or two things about myself. So anybody not interested in personal psycho stories, stop reading here, its gonna get boring all the way...

Okay, for all of you who dont know yet, I'm 38 years old (or is it 39 already?), and when it comes to the question about life I cannot remember a single day in my life when I was NOT thinking about it (at least for a second in some special moments).
I've lived my life so far always to the extremes (one of my greatest strong points as well as my weakest point), there a no shades of gray for me, always just black or white, yes or no. If I decide to do something I do it to the max, if I decide against something I wont touch it ever again. That oddly enough again and again led me from one addiction to the other. There was alcohol, music, cocain, work, whatever. But funny enough always one thing at a time. And I never had a problem to get out again, provided I *decided* to.
If you'd asked me what was the sense of my life at that times, I'd answer "friendship". I was always kinda proud of my ability to listen to someone. So it happenend again and again I got to know people (women most times), that I thought to get closer to than anybody else before, and I heard stories that make you really doubt in human intelligence, I tell you. Though shocking and frighting at the same time it gave me a feeling of importance, the chance to help someone out of a critical situation in his/her life, yes, probably *the* sense to my life. But after all I only got used as psycho-bin. As soon as the situations turned to good again the magic was gone, I was not needed anymore (and it took me a long, long time to really see it this way!).
There was work. For almost 12 years (the last 4 of that time are the important ones actually) I spent my life in an office, I could have given up my flat really, for I was at home only for 4 to 5 hours of sleep and back to work again. No holidays during those years, no weekends, no nothing else but work. There were times when I didn't even know what month it was. My office was dark all the time, so it looked and felt always the same whatever time of day it was. Cocain helped a lot to forget the world around you. I had sessions of up to 60 hours in a row, dont ask me what I actually did then! All my life happened in this office of 2 on 4 meters including love affairs, talks and dates with friends, simply everything.
Love? Well..you could tell I'm a pretty difficult guy to handle. Though always longing and searching for my other half the moment it was there I felt imprisoned. Actually there was no woman who ever had a real chance to get into my life as she might have deserved it. I always felt threatened in my way to live and never really was ready for compromises. So no relationship ever lasted longer than two years. My fault (Will I ever be able to change it?).
In the early morning of the Semptember 23rd 1998 I woke up with a terrible pain in my chest. It ceased and came back with the movement of my body, when I turned my upper body to the side the pain was gone, when I moved normally it returned. I sat on my balcony, had a smoke and a cup of coffee and just waited for the pain to disappear, but it didn't, on the contrary, it became worse and worse. It felt like a belt tightened around my chest and it became difficult to breathe at all. My heart pounding faster and faster I slowly got afraid of what might be happening there in my body. And this fear rose. Much too late I realized this was going to be serious and all of a sudden there was this fear of dying this very minute. Finally I decided to call the medics, which needed an awfully long 20 minutes to arrive (the longest 20 minutes ever in my life. No, 60 seconds are not always one minute). I cannot remember to let them into my flat (but obviously I did since I couldnt write these lines if I didnt), actually I cannot remember anything for the next 48 hours. When I woke up again I first heard all those beeps and pings around me, I felt some tubes in my nose and when I opened my eyes I first saw the crying eyes of my girlfriend. Later I saw those two round spots on my chest, where the skin was burned by this reanimation thingie and I was told I had a serious heart attack in which I lost about 30 percent of my heart's abilities and that I was dead actually for almost one minute. I spent more than 3 months in different hospitals and Reha-clinics, before I came home again.
The first things I did when I was home again were to quit my job and to get rid of my girlfriend. For the next two years I lived moreorless in agony drowning in self-pity. At the beginning of 2001 I started to work again, but somehow everything is different to what it was. Though I really dont work too much, not in time nor in my addiction to the work, I'm absolutely not able to concentrate on anything else. It feels as if those lost 10 hours of each day even suck out my very last drop of power. I'm trying to not let it get too much importance to my life but somehow its taking everything I have. So, at the moment - well, rather for the last three years - I'm living from weekend to weekend, only to realize I'm doing nothing but waiting for the next and probably final heart attack.

So, back to the point. For me there is absolutely no sense in life anymore. I really think we are just an accident of evolution and I wish I could stop thinking about it. I managed to isolate myself completely, I cancelled each and every friendship I once had, I'm not talking to anyone anymore (in person) but my colleges, the times my phone is ringing with people trying to contact me are getting fewer and fewer, I dont answer it anyway, and the most strange thing about it is the fact it doesnt feel like I'm missing something there. The thought coming to my mind in almost every situation is "No, I cant do that, cause I'm just losing precious time", but I really cant tell you what I'm using this so precious time for but thinking, thinking about me, what I did wrong along the way, which opportunities I let slip away, why I didnt die, when I'm gonna die. Its a mixture of fear and fascination. Its a way out, that much is for sure, but I'm not yet ready to walk that way. But still I dont know where to turn to, in fact I know nothing. And then again I'm looking out of the window and see a blue sky with some white spots here and there and suddenly ask myself why I didn't see this beauty earlier and why it doesnt mean anything to me a few seconds later. One thing is for sure: I'm getting crazy and there's nothing to do to prevent it.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Feb 18, 2002 05:08 # 2090

gentledeepwaters *** replies...

Re: The Meaning of Life? <long and personal>

73% | 2

Yes...there is something you can do...tiny steps every day...come back...you are needed...I kid you not...I don't have the words either....but in MY life right now, some very hurtful things are happening and I absolutely need you in my life. I don't run away from trouble, but if I could not talk to you or hear your talents, it would break something in me, my courage I guess. I do not say this as a bandaid to your suffering. I am not going to cry on your shoulder, I'll deal with my stuff, but I NEED you in my life.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Feb 18, 2002 10:06 # 2094

Jaz *** throws in his two cents...

Re: The Meaning of Life? <long and personal>

?% | 1

There's a line sitting somewhere in this site's tagline file saying Time spent with cats is never wasted. Whenever I spent hours playing with my family's small hairy friend I asked myself if there wasn't anything more important for me to do and I would always remember that one line which for some weird reasons seems to tell more about life, the universe and everything than all of the other 400 smartass quotes together.

The only thing that should really worry you is this obsession of finding the ultimate 'What's-life-supposed-to-mean' answer. Sometimes when I read your e-mails, when we chat, or now that I read this post of you it remotely reminds me of writings from OCD victims who are obsessed by washing her hands, or checking the oven (have I really turned it off?) every few minutes, at day, at night, all the time.

Do you know what? You're probably never going to find that one answer to everything. But you're spoiling your whole life with it. Might it be because I'm half as old as you, but I'm fully content with living my life, having my share of fun on the way, and finding some small parts of the ultimate answer in things like love or friendship.

When I'm having a good time, I'm not spoiling it by wondering how it fits in the bigger picture, and thinking how irrelevant it is on the long run to have fun right now.

Frankly if I would never allow myself to live for the moment I'd probably go crazy too. I am not going to worry about worrying itself more than about whatever is actually giving me a hard time. I know how hard it is for you to accept input from any person that's not yourself, but maybe you should just try and have fun without any conditions set a few more times in your life.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Feb 18, 2002 21:01 # 2103

Martin *** replies...

Re: The Meaning of Life? <long and personal>

70% | 2

"Never made it as a wise man
I couldn't cut it as a poor man stealin'
Tired of living like a blind man
I'm sick of sight without a sense of feeling

This is how you remind me
This is how you remind me of what I really am"

Thank you.

courtesy of Chad Kroeger's "Nickelback - How you remind me" from their album "silver side up", go and get it!!

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

This post was edited by Martin on Feb 18, 2002.

Feb 19, 2002 16:14 # 2109

Orchid *** throws in her two cents...

Re: The Meaning of Life? <long and personal>

Oh yess! The song kicks ass! I downloaded it sunday and I think I could listen to it without any break! :-)

Maybe they come to St.Gallen in summer? Hell would this be great! :-)

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Feb 18, 2002 19:56 # 2101

Orchid *** throws in her two cents...

Re: The Meaning of Life? <long and personal>

It's a strange thing. We're all suffering.
But you seem to be a very brave man. I mean you went through so terrible things but you never claim.
Look at me: I'm going through totally unimportant crisis and am always posting how bad my life is.
At the moment I'm working as a poor underpaid and underestimated student in a library. I'm shifting books from one shelf to another. :-( And everybody has to hear about my headache, my desperate motivation etc. pp.
What's this compared to your problems.
Still I don't care 'cause you're own hurt's always the worst...

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Feb 18, 2002 21:21 # 2104

Martin *** replies...

To everybody replying to the previous post

?% | 1

Thanks to all of you.
Believe me, I didn't mean to cause such emotional responses at all. I'm feeling a little embarrased of so much attention to my history. Dont worry, I'll handle it as I always did. Sometimes you're feeling low, we all know that, yesterday was such a day, maybe I'd better not sit down and write a post then. And of course I dont want this thread to become a discussion of my personal probs. Actually it was intended to be a response, too, but anyhow it, rather me, changed the mood while writing. Sorry!

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Feb 21, 2002 22:32 # 2131

Orchid *** throws in her two cents...

Too near, too cruel

94% | 2

Who are we? Where are we going to?
Questions we ask ourselfs every day.
99% of these questions remain unanswered maybe till death. Maybe we'll never know.
Soberly looked at we're a bunch of ramping egoists. But there's more. Besides all this we are able to do good.
The motivation may be selfish, yes, but the result can be good.
The worthiest thing we have is love. "All we need is love" isn't just a song for stoned hippies. It could be a idiom, too.
There are both sides and they can be that clear as they are on NAO: We have really poor people here and some really weird guys (esp me ;-)
but we have love, too. Much of it: Marriage, engagement, birth... It's like Ying and Yang.
And there's always some truth in every philosohers essays. There's truth in the look of a puppy, there's even truth in a bedroom it just depends on how you
see it yourself. We're different - and equal. We're unique. A fish is unique, a tree is.

Love saves us and kills us.

Today my father had to told me today the 23 years old daughter of one of his coworkers died
in the hospital. She has married in autumn and was pregnant. Embolia (aneurism?). I didn't know her, I just saw her father from time to time.
I couldn't believe it. Such things are happening every day alla round the world. This "unfairness" doesn't stop from rich
people, doesn't stop from famous or very nice ones.
I imagined the father receiving the call that he should come instantly.
I placed myself in that situation and thought about how shocking it must be. I imagine the trembling on my fingers putting back the receiver and
sitting in the car like a robot. I tried to imagine the husband, the mother, her sisters and brothers...
Their question is why? Why we? Why her? But noone will answer.
I don't know if I could handle with this, I think I couldn't. I'd cry and cry, then stop myself and think I'd just cry because I'll be alone now.
When my dog died two years ago I had to shout at me that he's better now. But it didn't help: I'm not better and who can tell he is.
I still can't talk of it any longer because te wounds will never heal. I loved him too much. I can't forget. Three days after him rising to dogs heaven I
stopped crying. Even worse was seeing daddy crying: The strong man turning into a weak and sensitive one. I feared he wouldn't handle with Jesse's death.
But we all did. In fact we just hid it somewhere behind our souls

Always when death seems so near I think about myself in that situation to sweep it "behind the carpet" afterwards.
We have to do this. Otherwise we couldn't live anymore.
I know I couldn't live anymore if my love died. I think I would try to follow.
But I don't wanna make myself crazy with this. I enjoy the most beautiful moments in my life.
It has never been that way before. My senses have grown more intense, my thinkings got deeper, my heart easier to hurt, my tears came faster. All this since
I got to know love. Harmony began to count more, happiness got more important. Arguments more often found an end. Dreams returned and tell me some stories every night.
We think about our future, try to get on with things, with people. Make responsabilities and decisions. Do things we want and care for our souls and for our body (more or less).

Briefly: We're changing ourselves in a positive direction. The world is cruel enough. Life endures an instant. So watch out. Don't give up.
Try to enjoy every second in your life.
I know it's easily said 'cause I myself often can't do it.
Well, I hope I haven't written too obvious things. I just had to get rid of my feelings... :-)

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Feb 20, 2002 22:27 # 2114

Alekseji ** replies...

Re: The Meaning of Life? <long and personal>

94% | 2

Well, i think no one of us can say "i know what you're feeling" but your personal history helped me understanding why you are arguing in this way.

I really think we are just an accident of evolution ...

I also don't know if this is right. In a scientific sense you're absolutely right and i think, in this forum, i don't need any arguments to prove this thesis.

I wanna mention Hobbes (or the things of him i can still remember... so it might be able that some interpretations are wrong ;) )
Hobbes thinks of the human beeings beeing as a wolf, with an selfish claim for power but on the other hand an instinct of self preservation... No one of us can deny the "wolf" in us but what's with the "ratio naturalis"? Is it only an instinct of self preservation? Do you think in the same way like Hobbes and say that our free will, the POSSABILITY to make decissions and to foresee the consequences of these decission is made out of an instinct? Of an instinct which helped us 50.000 years ago estimating wheather we can beat up the neighbour in the cave next to us and take his wife or not?

A part of me can't believe this, although it is absolutely conform with science. Nothing else living on earth has a ratio! But they succeeded surviving WITHOUT it. Why should have evolution brought up mind if "no-mind" is more than enough?! And what is evolution? We're calling evolution the time which has passed and brought up things/creatures we can see today. NOTHING more. As soon as we put sense in "evolution", as soon as we say that evolution made a mistake by bringing us up we personalize "evolution", we gave it a face. Where's than the difference between evolution and god?

(I hope, you can understand what i want to say. I'm sorry but my English is too bad to express what i'm thinking ;) )

And, Martin, think about the following poem: (Sorry, it's German... i don't dare translating it into English... But i'll post the "original" latin verses, so at least the non-german-but-latin-speaker among you can understand it ;) )

Wenn etwas dir ins Auge geraten ist, dann
beeilst du dich, es zu entfernen. Wenn etwas
deine Seele verletzt, warum schiebst du die
Kur bis über das Jahr hinaus?
Wer begonnen hat, hat schon das halbe Werk.
Darum: Wage es, weise zu sein! Wage den
Anfang!
Wer die Stunde für das richtige Leben
aufschiebt, der macht es wie ein Bauer, der
wartet, bis der Strom abfließt; der aber fließt
und fließt und wird in alle Ewigkeit fließen.
Horaz, epist. I,2

nam cur
quae laedunt oculum, festinas demere: siquid
est animum. differs curandi tempus in annum?
dimidium facti qui coepit habet: sapere aude,
incipe. vivendi qui recte prorogat horam,
rusticus exspectat, dum defluat amnis; at ille
labitur et labetur in omne volubilis aevum.
Horaz, epist. I,2

The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.

Feb 21, 2002 08:34 # 2115

Jaz *** replies...

Re: The Meaning of Life?

Wow, you did manage to surprise me with this post.

BTW, you're back? How has it been?

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Feb 02, 2002 22:53 # 1969

frank *** replies...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

?% | 1

This post was deleted by request of the author.

Feb 03, 2002 02:50 # 1970

gentledeepwaters *** replies...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

?% | 1

ROTFLMAO I adore you, Frank...Grins......you get right to the gist of things...

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Feb 13, 2002 14:17 # 2049

Jaz *** replies...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

I mean, is life any more than an accident?

Is life on Earth unique? A wonder? Something special? Sure. But maybe "accident" doesn't quite fit it. Maybe our existence is dictated by the laws of probability. Maybe we're the one in a million chance that was bound to happen in a universe as rich in combination as ours.

Putting aside stochastics and statistics, what somehow doesn't feel right is that if we're really that one-in-a-million chance, and the only one at that, one has to look at the beauty and richness of life that is out there, and wonder why there is such a crass gap between this wonder and the nothingness that comprises the rest of the universe.

Hmm.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Feb 17, 2002 13:33 # 2086

Martin *** replies...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

Thats simply a question of scales. If you're sitting just on Mars for example and looking back at Earth, there is nothing to see of "the beauty and richness of life". Its just a never changing hunk of stone in the sky, okay, the only blue and white one perhaps. But if you take a handful of Martian sand there's so much to see and to understand, and suddenly the richness is right in your hands. Now imagine you're standing on a planet some million LY away from our solarsystem. What is left then of this beauty? Maybe we just have the ability to talk things pretty, just as we need it to not go crazy...

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Feb 18, 2002 09:29 # 2093

Jaz *** replies...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

Mars is a rock whereas Earth isn't. What does it matter how our planet looks like seen from far away? I would never trade in the life of our world for a handful of sand, which you can find on every stupid planet on the universe, unlike the squirrel that just hopped past my window.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Feb 18, 2002 21:30 # 2105

Martin *** replies...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

You didn't get my point there. What do we know of this universe? Nothing! What, if there are billions of planets with "life" - whatever that means - out there. We haven't got the chance to even notice it, cause of distances, rather our limited senses. We are too close to what we see, we're not able to take a step back and look at the complete picture. So we keep assessing the things we see, but maybe we haven't seen anything yet compared to what is really visible.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Feb 23, 2002 00:02 # 2166

GravityStormz * wants to know...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

?% | 1

An observation.
What is this human desire to know our place in the Universe? Is there an in-born chip placed in us by the Universe itself calling us to recognize It? Is it the same chip placed in ants to understand their place in the colony? We are not ants but do ants wonder about the vastness of their Universe? We are all star dust,ants and humans. Is our conciousness and desire to know merely a unique arrangement of those dust particle calling out to the source of that dust or the universal wind that haphazadly arranged the dust in order for the seed of conciousness to grow,fullfilling It's own desire to be recognized. Has the Universe become so lonely in it's expanision quest that it now leaves a trail of lonely hearts seeking their place in the chaos? Seek not the place in the chaos but, the chaos itself. Our guestions are not our own but, the the Universe questioning Itself. Our place in the Universe is like the lonely Eyeglass that stares across time. It sees nothing itself. We are the Universe looking at Itself.

GravityStormz

Does Darkness have speed too?

Feb 23, 2002 19:01 # 2171

Jaz *** replies...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

But is the universe aware of us? My eyes are part of myself, but am I really aware of it? What now if life on Earth got destroyed by some cosmic catastrophe, what would it be like for the universe - losing a limb, or clipping off some nails?

This observation of yours made me think..

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

This post was edited by Jaz on Feb 23, 2002.

Feb 23, 2002 22:42 # 2172

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

What now if life on Earth got destroyed by some cosmic catastrophe, what would it be like for the universe - losing a limb, or clipping off some nails?

Probably just removing the dirt under the fingernails. :-)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Mar 17, 2002 20:58 # 2471

skelmonkey * replies...

Re: Question about life, universe and everything

so simple...
the universe is a damn big place...
it only had to happen once...and here we are...


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