Reading NiQuE's journal

Aug 08, 2005 17:12 # 37928

NiQuE ** wants to know...

Preventable Mistakes

93% | 3

I have a very good friend who is getting married this September. She is a beautiful woman who is smart, spunky, and full of positive energy. She is someone that you can always pour your heart out to without feeling uncomfortable or insecure. She is one of my best friends.

Niki has been with a guy, James, for about 2 years now. They have decided to get married this September. The wedding has already been called off once, due to god knows what... however, about 6 months ago everything was a go again... Unfortunately.

James is significantly lower on the scale of men that Niki is capable of obtaining... I don't mean to come across as being vain, but it is true. He just doesn't have a lot going for him and isn't Niki's type at all.

Everytime I see Niki and James together they fight. The first time I met James was over a year ago, they had been dating for a few months by that time and were already fighting constantly, despite who was in their presence. I thought that it might have been one of their first arguments, so I disregarded their dispute as being typical couple issues.

It seems to have gotten worse...

James works as a labourer for an oil company and is away for several weeks at a time. He goes away to work for a few weeks then returns home for a week. Two weeks on, one week off type of thing... On occasion he will be asked to stay out in the field for 4 weeks to pull 12 hour days. Because of his work schedule, I don't think that they have been able to spend quality time together to get to know eachother completely. His time off is hectic and most of it is taken up by travel time. The rest is taken up by errands, wedding planning and the occasional hour or two spent with Niki.

About a month ago or so, Niki and another friend of her's had come up to visit me here. James was in the US working for a month and hadn't seen Niki during that entire time and was going to fly up here to meet her. They would then spend some time here to visit some people that they know and then proceed to drive home together.

James's flight was arriving early in the morning and we were to pick him up at the airport. The evening before his arrival Niki had received a call from him. They immediately started to argue about something over the phone. After they hung up, Niki didn't elaborate on their discussion, but did tell us one thing: That James had requested that Niki look amazing when we pick him up from the airport. As if he wanted to show her off to all of his dirty oil buddies. As if she were a trophy wife...

This disgusted me. Niki doesn't need to get all glamed up to look gorgeous, she already is. And why the hell does she need to dress up? Just so he could show her off? Why should it matter what she looks like if he truely loves her? He should of been happy to see her no matter what.

After we had picked up James from the airport, the fighting started. Niki became more quiet, more timid, and just wasn't the same person, it was like James put out the flame that was burning inside of her. All of her amazing qualities seemed to disappear and she wasn't herself.

I think that she is making a huge mistake by marrying James, but I just don't know how to tell her... And the wedding is only 3 weeks away... Everything is ready. This will happen. I don't know why she is doing it. I don't know if she really, truely loves him, or if she is just marrying him because all of her friends in her town are married... Maybe she feels left out?

I am also not the only one that thinks this. My sister is Niki's best friend and she can't bear the thought of the two of them being together, but she doesn't know how to tell her either... I guess it might be because we aren't as close as we used to be and we don't want to risk our friendships with her if we do decide to say something and she doesn't agree with it..

Niki called me the other day. I knew something was wrong by the tone of her voice. She told me that she is pregnant... She's not ready and I know it. She is scared, and doesn't have solid support behind her. Her family is pretty messed up and James is away 3/4 of the time... Gosh.

I am dreading this wedding. I have a feeling it will end up in divorce... I just want to her to see past all of the frills and excitement of the wedding and realize that James isn't the man for her.

Do I say anything? Or do I keep my mouth shut?

Aug 09, 2005 15:54 # 37938

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Preventable Mistakes

?% | 1

Niki called me the other day. I knew something was wrong by the tone of her voice. She told me that she is pregnant... She's not ready and I know it. She is scared, and doesn't have solid support behind her. Her family is pretty messed up and James is away 3/4 of the time... Gosh.
I am dreading this wedding. I have a feeling it will end up in divorce... I just want to her to see past all of the frills and excitement of the wedding and realize that James isn't the man for her.
Do I say anything? Or do I keep my mouth shut?

Before I got to this point of your post, I was all for you trying to make her realize her mistake, but now... now that I read that there is going to be a baby... oh boy! This is a hard one. I can't imagine her being with that horrid guy, but at the same time I can't imagine her raising a kid all on her own. I know that there have been women who have done this, but surely it must not have been a picnic; plus, in this case, she doesn't really have a real support to back her up, as you stated...

Also, maybe we should consider that maybe they actually love each other. I mean, maybe he doesn't love her as much as she does, maybe he will learn to love her more... who knows...
I know I wouldn't have started a relationship with a man like that, but you know not everybody is the same; maybe your friend was looking for something different than me, or than you for that matter.

I don't really feel like giving you a yes/no to tell her kinda thing at this point, because I wouldn't even know what is right or wrong in this situation. My post might hopefully just aim to make you think more about the situation, and maybe open your eyes to other possibilities or other views on the thing, so that it can help you deciding what you think would be best.

The last thing I am wondering, and maybe is worth considering, is are you sure that they fight always no matter what? Maybe they fight just in presence of other people, but then they don't fight as often when they are alone. Also, one more thing... I think that love leads to fight. I do fight with my fiance, and most of the time we fight over pretty idiotic things.

This doesn't mean that we don't love each other though. One of his brothers divorced from his wife 2 years ago and is now finally dating again... well you want to know what? He stated that he and his ex wife have never ever fought. Not even once. And we believe him. The fact is that they never had very much to discuss, and therefore they never had anything worth to argue on. Arguing is good, but of course to an extent.

The very last thing I want to leave you with is the following: are you really sure that they fight all the time no matter what, and that they are never somehow happy and in an agreement? Because, as I stated, arguing is good to an extent, so what you need to know is whether that extent was exceeded or not. And this is probably something that only your friend knows, and that you might know somehow indirectly.

All I can say now is that I wish you luck with your decision. Just ponder everything very well, and I am sure that you'll take the best decision for your friend. But remember that in the end it will be her final word, so if she doesn't seem to be convinced at all from what you are trying to tell her (assuming you decide for the 'tell her everything thing' of course), well I would suggest just to let it go. I know you wouldn't want to see her hurt, but I think that you shouldn't force it upon her, else your friendship might be hurt, and you know that she will need you in case the marriage doesn't last.

Good luck!

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Aug 11, 2005 18:23 # 37981

NiQuE ** replies...

Re: Preventable Mistakes

65% | 2

Thank you all for your replys :). After reading each one carefully, I have come to decision on how I will deal with this delicate situation:

maybe we should consider that maybe they actually love each other.

I don't know how their relationship is away from everyone else. I could be totally wrong about them, they just might actually love eachother.... In the presence of others; however, it sure doesn't seem that way.

Maybe they have this sick tug-of-war type thing going on between them where they get off on fighting or bickering at eachother... Who knows, it might just work for them... It does sound weird, but I guess every relationship is different.

I know I have to talk to her about this...

I think I will go about it like this (and after a drink or 2);):

"Niki, I think of you as my little sister and I just want to make sure that you are 100% ready for what lies ahead. Are you sure you are ready for this?"

I have a feeling her answer will be yes, even if deep down in her heart she knows that it isn't right.

Her answer will be one that I will respect, regardless.
Even if I do not necessarily agree with their wedding at this very moment... I have to be there to support her decision no matter what.

This post was edited by NiQuE on Aug 11, 2005.

Aug 10, 2005 05:21 # 37951

zen *** replies...

Re: Preventable Mistake

94% | 5

You're right. This marriage is headed for divorce, but only after all the hurt, lonlieness, alienation that these kinds of pairings bring with them. Sure, you want to be encouraging, but at this point things aren't good...they will only get worse.
That's my personal experience anyway.

My suspicion is that she already agrees with you. I'm sure she thinks that this is a bad decision. But why is it that women, way moreso than men, will stay in a bad situation. A woman, like my sister, stayed with the man she married, even though they had so many, many, many problems. Why does my other sister stay with a guy who's violent, and has threatened her, and my mom? Are my sisters stupid? Are all women dumb like that?

No, women are not stupid. They just think differently from us guys--even the gay ones. Women I think are engrained with a "Prince Charming/Mr. Right" philosophy early on in life, and that she will ride away into the sunset with him, and live happily ever after.
More importantly, women think that they change the guy, or that if he loves me, he'll change. So, untill one can erase, or reformat, the mindset of another person, then all one can do is sit by and let the wreck happen.
But there's also a third factor, isn't there. There's a feeling of completeness that women want, that is found only in a relationship. It seems that a female's personal identity is based on those in the situations around her, frequently.
So with this built into the woman's "hardware" (so to speak), it's no wonder guys have no idea how a woman thinks. And until you can change that basic programming in her head, you are right--the wedding will commence.

But this says nothing of our spirit, and will. We can't just sit passively by and watch our friend get in a relationship wreck. We'd like to not have to pick-up our friends from the emergency room, or divorce court. Even if we don't think the chances are high, we still need to say something.

So I think a good way to start is like this:

[you are] a very good friend, a beautiful woman who is smart, spunky, and full of positive energy. [you are] someone that can always pour heart out to without feeling uncomfortable or insecure. [You are] one of my best friends.

James is significantly lower on the scale of men than [you are] capable of obtaining... I don't mean to come across as being vain, but it is true. He just doesn't have a lot going for him and isn't type at all.

Ok, you stated your case at this point. Good.

Everytime I see Niki and James together they fight.

It seems to have gotten worse...

Because of his work schedule, I don't think that they have been able to spend quality time together to get to know eachother completely. His time off is hectic and most of it is taken up by travel time. The rest is taken up by errands, wedding planning and the occasional hour or two spent with Niki.

These are good things to say too.

After they hung up, Niki didn't elaborate on their discussion, but did tell us one thing: That James had requested that Niki look amazing when we pick him up from the airport. As if he wanted to show her off to all of his dirty oil buddies. As if she were a trophy wife...
This disgusted me. Niki doesn't need to get all glamed up to look gorgeous, she already is. And why the hell does she need to dress up? Just so he could show her off? Why should it matter what she looks like if he truely loves her? He should of been happy to see her no matter what.
After we had picked up James from the airport, the fighting started. Niki became more quiet, more timid, and just wasn't the same person, it was like James put out the flame that was burning inside of her. All of her amazing qualities seemed to disappear and she wasn't herself.
I think that she is making a huge mistake by marrying James, but I just don't know how to tell her...

I am also not the only one that thinks this. My sister is Niki's best friend and she can't bear the thought of the two of them being together, but she doesn't know how to tell her either...

I disagree, you do.
What you need is the opportunity to tell her. Tell her she needs to get away to take her mind off the wedding.

Problem:

Everything is ready. This will happen. I don't know why she is doing it. I don't know if she really, truely loves him, or if she is just marrying him because all of her friends in her town are married... Maybe she feels left out?

Problem:

Niki called me the other day. I knew something was wrong by the tone of her voice. She told me that she is pregnant... She's not ready and I know it. She is scared, and doesn't have solid support behind her. Her family is pretty messed up and James is away 3/4 of the time... Gosh.

Sounds like you actually nailed the reasoning. She wants to have a family. The fact that he's a oily slug that just weaseled his way into a good thing with your friend, makes it convenient for her.
After he's told her that she's not really pretty, or that she needs help, or that she's not very smart, or any number of manipulative things to her to break her self confidence, she slowly starts to believe him. He tells me he loves me, he must be right.

I told my partner (of about 8 years now) at one point that I'm not here to make him miserable. I'm sure as shit not going to let him make me miserable. The same follows through, or should follow through in a herto relationship. If he loves you, he won't make your life miserable.
My partner only makes my life misery half the time. That's still far too much for me. Life is too short to life alone, lonely and miserable.

Three weeks is not too late. Why not? 2 weeks isn't too late. What if she got really sick? They have to cancell it then.
She can stall for time, tell him that she's getting cold feet. She's having second thoughts...anything to buy time.
Then, you girls should have an outing, or vacation together, and have a serious talk. Go out, even if it's just for a weekend, and bring along a bottle of wine.
Ask her exactly why she thinks this is a good idea. Appeal to her logical side. Bring out the facts. Don't give her the impression that you'll let up in your complete disproval for this. Tell her you won't go to the wedding, you or your sister.
If she can't be strong for herself, then be her friend and be strong for her. Marriage is not a small thing.

If you two can't talk her out of it at that point, then she's hopeless. Because what you will have proved at that point is that she does have support with you two. If there's ever a time that she needs you, it's now! This instant.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

This post was edited by zen on Aug 10, 2005.

Aug 10, 2005 11:37 # 37961

rosyxxx *** replies...

Re: Preventable Mistakes

92% | 2

If he wants to show her off as a trophy, if she seems to become timid and demure in his presence when she isn't normally...and as you say, it appears that he is putting out the flame burning inside of her; these things don't sound good. That's an understatement.

Whether she is pregnant or not, it is an issue of quality of life, not just for her, but for the baby. Does the baby really need to grow up in that environment? Two parents is ideal, but if the situation is verging on abusive, which it sounds very much like this is...it's very bad for her, even worse for the baby. What kind of values would that child be raised with, having a father who expects his wife to behave like something she is not? He seems to want to mold her and shape her very much into what he wants and not what she is...

But you know all of this. So, you need to tell her. EVEN if it means losing the friendship. Her well-being and that of her child now, are more important than your friendship. Even if she cuts you off as a friend, which I would doubt, because she has her doubts, it seems as well; you've at least confirmed what may have been haunting her in the back of her mind. If he is truly manipulative, then his thoughts take precedence over hers. Anyone's may take precedence over hers. If you add the element of dissension on your part, you give her another paradigm of understanding to look at. Even if she rashly cuts you off as a friend for saying she shouldn't be with him, you've at least given her something else to look at besides what he thinks. Her thoughts don't seem to matter much to either her or him. But yours might matter more...you never know until you try.

If your other friend also intervenes the majority may actually rule, or not. But even so, she has a better chance of getting out of the marriage sooner, preferrably before it happens, if you tell her the truth. You must tell her how you truly feel, and not worry if she will dump you as a friend. A dead end life with someone who stifles and distorts her, is worse for her than you losing a friend.

There were a few people around me when I was having my mind manipulated by someone, who wanted to voice their opinions, but didn't. They feared they would lose my friendship, however vague it was anyway. The thing is...they probably would have...temporarily. Because if they spoke up, I would have told him, and he would have mandated that they leave just like he did with everyone else who came in my sphere which he didn't like. But, watching the only semblance of friendships I had go, would have made me think, eventually.

And I did. He tried to get me to give up the one friendship that was growing, because he sensed she might interfere. I refused. Resolutely. He backed down. I thought, if he is doing that he is afraid of her power, and maybe the doubts in my mind about him are true. Just that tiny shadow of doubt from outside your own mind, is enough to give you something to go on...to jump start your own thought-processes, so to speak.

Just a thought.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

Aug 11, 2005 14:08 # 37980

harold_maude *** replies...

Re: Preventable Mistakes

72% | 3

Making one mistake, like not using condoms or the pill and getting pregnant is something that happens to alot of people out there.
There are also alot of women and now more men who are raising their children as single parents.
It sounds like Niki does have some kind of support network, you being in that network who could be there to help out.

What I find terrifying in all of this is the notion that even though they fight all the time, and I'm guessing what bring the fights about are control issues, and this moron she is committed to marring haveing the need to control her life and everything she does.
He doesn't want a wife, he wants a servant who will fulfill his every whim.
What kind of husband is that, and even worse what kind of father is that?

Marring this man is another mistake. And if she does, she is condeming herself to a life of misery.

From what you discribed her as, she strikes me as the type of person who takes care of things, listens and makes those who spend time with her feel better and safe.
She is a rock.

Maybe she feels like this is what she deserves out of life, that she said somethings along the way somewhere and keeping her word is important, and changing her mind would make her feel like she had somehow failed.

If you care about her, be honest with her. Tell her how hard it is to watch her go through all of this. If she decides to go ahead with this wedding you have a choice of going or not going.
Personally I couldn't attend the wedding of a friend who I could see was making a terrible disasterous mistake.
Marring the wrong person just because you get pregnant is worse than staying single and either raising the child alone or putting it up for adoption.
One of the issues here that you could point out is that James is no father material.
If she is insistant on this ask her would she like James as her dad, effectivly giving her a view of the world from her child's perspective.
If she can honestly say that she would be willing to be subject to a parent who was never there, who was always arguing with the other parent and who most likely would be not nurturing at all, because that's what she's going to subject her baby too, if she can honestly say that she herself would want this, if she's honestly thought about this and can say yes without hesitation, then I would let it go.

You can try to show or tell someone a problem, but ultimatly the choice is their's. They own it and everthing that goes with it.


Small text Large text

Netalive Amp (Skin for Winamp)