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Feb 10, 2006 07:18 # 41783

eljefe *** posts about...

Time Travel Is Impossible!

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Alright sooo maybe I'll take another stab at getting back into this community. Maybe you guys aren't too tired for an intellectual thought provoker.

I have the basics of my thought down, I want to do some research into current quantam mechanics and string theory to further solidify this (it was indeed thought up by moi, only it took a good article saying the same thing to figure out how to truly expres these thoughts).

Basically, like the post title says, time travel (forwards, backwards) is impossible. And I can pretty well prove it to you using Calculus 1 and Introductory Physics.

Here we go:

Theorists when discussing currently unproveable things like gravity, singularities, and more shit I don't have that good of a grip on, they like to throw around a buzz word: spacetime.

Essentially, time is a 4th dimension. So lets work from there.

What we know is at bare minimum we have 3 dimensions: x, y, and z. And you have velocities and accelerations and such. Well, lets throw in spacetime, our supposed dimension.

Now we get velocity in our normal dimensions via our much loved dx/dt, dy/dt, dz/dt. Distance over time. Now in order to do time travel we need to have velocity in our time dimension, correct? Great, no problem, we just do a dt/dt and.. oh wait, dt/dt cancels out to 1. Not 1 second mind you, but 1. If there was a 4th dimension, object and particles in that dimension would never move. There would be no velocity, no nothing.

In order for particles to move in a fourth dimension, we'd have to define it as w (or any other arbitrary letter), to which velocity is dw/dt and we are no longer moving through time, rather we are moving through w. And no, w can't be time because if w was time, w would be t and velocity would be dt/dt.

Essentially what people fail to realize or tend to gloss over is that timeis a mathematical trick that we humans invented to put order to our world. Time is abstract, time is the displacement of object. Time is not a physical quality manifested in some dark matter or something of the like.

[now we get into what I havn't fully looked into]

As far as I know the big things on Quantam Mechanics is it throws alot of conventional physics out the window. But not our basic construct of space (x,y,z, and whatever other dimensions string theory creates). X, Y, Z, and any other dimension is the unchangeable construct of our universe. Everything plays by these simple laws. Displacement, Velocity, Acceleration.

Back on topic-ish, quantam physicis revel over how atoms take on multiple states at once, spin in both directions at the same time, etc. However they are still constrained to simple basic X, Y, Z, etc.

Some scientests like to theorize that particles that do wierd stuff and dissapear, reappear, etc. are jumping through time. All right, I have a parable for you. There is a perfect diamond sphere that sits on your desk every day. One day I freeze it to 0 Kelvin (atoms, electrons, etc. completely stopped) and run off with it. You don't know I did, and you see it missing. 5 days later I sneak it back in and return it to room temperature (since we are already unrealistic, instantaneously returned to room temperature). Then you see it. Did the sphere jump forward in time? Or perhaps backwards in time? I mean, its atoms are moving just like they would have 5 days ago had it not dissapeard. But no, it didn't go through time.

The particles and atoms scientest supposedly say are moving through time, rather I (with unscientific assumptions, which is based on as much fact as Stephen Hawking's theories were... seroiusly, not alot of empirical evidence was/could be used... in his defense, what tests could he actually run?) believe that quantam mechanics does not have the ability to allow jumping through time, but even better, instantaneous jumps. Position a to b instantaneously. That is well within our very very basic constructs relms (essentially we have a velocity of infinity). It could jump into our w dimension to do so (worm holes), but still no time travel.

I hope my post had my point come across... I kinda started to foam at the mouth at the end.

Thoughts? Praise? Refutations? Flamebait [not welcome]?

Fond memories

Nov 30, 2010 07:58 # 46918

Elinvar * shakes his head...

Re: Time Travel Is Impossible!

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Well, time travel may be impossible, but you proof is wrong.

“…dx/dt, dy/dt, dz/dt. Distance over time. Now in order to do time travel we need to have velocity in our time dimension, correct? Great, no problem, we just do a dt/dt and.. oh wait, dt/dt cancels out to 1.”

Well, ya, of course it does. But you’ll notice the same thing if you take v/v or a/a. Think of the significance behind the equation you just wrote;

A value of time divided by it’s self equals one. But this statement is meaningless.

You can’t describe anything it terms of it’s self, it’s as useless as saying I traveled five meters over five meters.

That being said, if I say I traveled 100m / 5m, then we get something more useful; 20m/m. This is nonsense of course, and is actually equal to a unit-less 20. But, this is only in a Newtonian standpoint.

Newton thought that the passage of time was constant throughout the universe; one second on earth is on second everywhere. However, Einstein proved that this is not the case. As one approaches c, space-time becomes bent, and time moves more slowly. This distortion has been measured in satellites and by astronauts leaving earth’s surface.

So what does 20m/m, or equally 20s/s, mean?

20m/m might refer to the length of a meter stick thrown into a black hole. The gravity would stretch the meter stick to 20 times its length in earth’s gravitational field. This is only from the perspective of someone safely outside the black hole however. To anyone unfortunate enough to fall into to where the meter stick was, they would think that it was still the normal 1m in length, because any equipment they brought with them and even their own eyes would be stretched to the same degree!

20s/s would be passage of time in one area relative to the passage of time in another area. So If I were on a ship traveling close to the speed of light, and you were on earth, then you would experience 20s for every second I experienced.

So 20m/m and 20s/s are ratios of dimensional distortion between two points of reference.

“…what people fail to realize or tend to gloss over is that time is a mathematical trick that we humans invented to put order to our world.”

Also incorrect. Time is a non physical dimension in which virtually everything is traveling. Think of us as falling thorough time.

Prove it you say? Okay; Thermodynamics.

Specifically the second law: Heat cannot spontaneously flow from a colder location to a hotter location.

So a hot object will dissipate heat and a cold object will accept heat. This heat transfer requires one ‘past’ state in which a hot object is placed in a cool environment, and a ‘future’ state in which the object and the environment have the same energy level.

This is a fundamental principal of the universe, but it requires past which will set up future events, in fact the principal of cause and effect is unusable without time. Time is not merely a human organizational tool, it is a reality.

Finally, quantum physics.
-Quantum tunnelling (teleportation) may not be time travel, but it allows a particle to cross physical space without traveling the intermediary distance. This doesn’t mean that the particle suddenly gains infinite velocity and then suddenly louses it. Were that the case, particles could not tunnel through solid objects which they should have no business passing through. Doesn’t that break the immutability of x-y-z?

-The only quantum effect which could count as time travel is entanglement, and involves transferring information faster than light. I don’t actually understand how this is considered time travel though, so take it how you will.

Am looking forward to your responce.

I welcome questions.

Dec 03, 2010 14:59 # 46955

mariann *** replies...

Time Travel is a fact

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Here is visual proof.

:D Love it! :D

Dec 04, 2010 13:47 # 46963

null replies...

Re: Time Travel is a fact

?% | 2

Heheh, love it. :-)

But there's a rational explanation where the cell phone really came from!

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Dec 04, 2010.

Feb 01, 2011 13:51 # 46985

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Time Travel is a fact

Time in of itself is not simply another dimension, but rather several dimensions. See this general explanation for the 11 dimensions. This essentially means you can't just talk about time travel like it were a linear progression, but rather as a cumulation of decisions which create parallel universes and the consequences of such decisions (well parallel something or another since technically there can be only one universe).

In this sense, before you can see time for what it really is, you must be able to first be able to see all possible possibilities. That might seem like a hard thing to imagine, but we do it everyday for simple systems like predicting where the cue ball will end up after a shot in billiards or blocking a slam in volleyball. In such scenarios, the number of possibilities is limited therefore we can determine all likely outcomes. Consequently, the future is easy to determine in such cases. If you could change the spectrum of probability, in a sense you'd be determining which "parallel universe" you'd be entering and therefore what the consequences will be (taking care to line your shots in billiards will ensure that you hit the ball in the hole for instance).

Time travel is simply the next pass in this sequence. Rather than determining the outcome and therefore knowing what the future will hold, you go to that moment. While I don't know how time travel is possible, I'd imagine the way to do it lies in this logic somewhere.

If the world should blow itself up,the last audible voice would be an expert saying it can't be done

Feb 15, 2011 20:42 # 47009

Elinvar * agrees...

Re: Time Travel is a fact

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Good point, I wasn't thinking of 11th dimensional theory when I wrote the above.

From what I understand about the 11 dimensions theory is that you have the three physical dimensions, then the 4th, duration (or time); which is best imagined as one possible destiny, the 5th which contains the choices you can make to shift between 4th dimensional destinies, and the 6th which encompasses every choice at any possible time.

Hence the sixth dimension represents all possibilities given a certain starting point, hence every thing possible in our universe can be represented in the sixth dimension.

The 7th dimension encompasses parallel universes with different initial conditions; different fundamental constants like gravity or c, or something like that.

Here’s where it gets difficult and to be honest I don’t understand the theory beyond that point, but by the 9th dimension we end up with all possible timelines in all possible universes.

If you want to learn more about the theory I’m referring to, you can Google “imagining the 10th dimension”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuA is the first of two viedos which sum up the theory as acessably as possible.

Anyway, to get back on topic, traveling in the fourth dimension would be rather pointless, as if you wanted to go back to your childhood, you would regress to you childhood in body and mind along with the rest of the universe.
To change your reality, you would have to travel through the fifth dimension to a universe where you made different choices resulting in more favourable conditions.
If you wanted to go to the past as a separate entity, like how time travel is portrayed in movies, then you’d actually have to travel through the 6th dimension.

Or, at least that’s my understanding…

I welcome questions.

Feb 16, 2011 15:35 # 47010

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Time Travel is a fact

I think you summed up that video better than I ever could have. Though something I still find hard to grasp is that you'd need to use a higher dimension to be able to navigate the current dimension with relative ease. The scenario they provided was curving a newspaper to allow an ant to traverse one side of the newspaper to the other instantaneously.

I can understand the example, but when you start talking about bending the 4th dimension in order to change positions in 3d space, already I'm finding it difficult to imagine how you'd go about doing that.

If the world should blow itself up,the last audible voice would be an expert saying it can't be done


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