Reading Philosophy

Apr 16, 2007 05:05 # 44398

Bunk *** wants to know...

Can reason fix everything?

65% | 5

Seeing as Philosophy is the art of questioning...

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

And another question: Is knowing the truth always beneficial? Is it best to have as much knowledge as possible?

"History is more or less bunk." - Henry Ford

Apr 18, 2007 12:11 # 44415

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

?% | 2

Seeing as nobody else hangs around in here, I'm going to add my .02 :-)

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

We can probably find solutions, but I don't believe we'll be able to realize them within due time. From what I've seen, people more often than not prefer the "if I stick my head in the sand, maybe the problem will go away" approach, or they just plainly refuse to acknowledge a problem. You can find this kind of behaviour almost everywhere and in every aspect of life.

Take diets, f'r instance. Time and again this easy formula has been proven right: consume less energy than your body burns, and you'll lose weight. In other words, go easy on the cheese cake and exercise.
Most people who want to lose weight are not happy with that approach: it's a slow process and probably demands abstention from eating your favourite foods, not to mention the strenuous physical activity. Hence they go crazy over something like Atkins or the dozens of miracle diets in women's magazines that promise weight loss with nearly no sacrifice whatsoever. I believe that the potential for denial and wishful thinking is in all of us.

Then there's the fact that knowing and accepting what is 'right' doesn't mean you'll automatically do it. Maybe you don't because of laziness - think of flossing: everybody agrees that it's a good idea, if your dentist is like mine he'll preach the necessity of flossing after every meal to you on every visit, and you assure him that you do it religiously - yet both you and him know that you do it maybe once a day... on a good week.

Or look at our current (and past) environmental problems, a long-running issue if there ever was one. It's a pretty safe bet* to say that we'll eventually run out of oil, global warming will kill (or at least seriously mess with) most of our food supplies, regular water shortages in the first world may well be a reality soon, and who knows what's waiting for us in terms of natural disasters.
We all know what it takes to solve (or at least delay) these problems: sell your car and use solar-powered public transportation, save electricity wherever/whenever possible, use less plastic, buy all your food from a nearby farm and make a bunch of other really huge sacrifices.
The facts are more or less undisputed*, yet show me one geographic area or society that would embrace or even accept these changes that ask you to sacrifice so big a part of your comfy life.
(* Unless your last name is Bush or Cheney, in which case unlimited access to cheap oil is your God-given right as a citizen of a free country and all will be well once your glorious troops have wiped out 'em freedom-hating terrorist sand niggers.)

Then there's greed. I've heard it said that there is not one single Fortune 500 company that hasn't been charged with a crime at least once. In the 90's the Pentagon set up an office especially to deal with fraud cases by General Electric. Companies like IBM, Krupp and Siemens supported Hitler in exchange for exclusive multi-billion contracts with the Reich.

And last but not least, even among the purest and most well-intended of idealists, not everybody has the same idea of what is the 'right' thing to do.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

May 09, 2007 21:39 # 44492

smashedmotif * has all the information you need...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

f'r

This is an example of rhoticity. In this case, though, it is not being placed on a mid-centric vowel. Here it is acting as the end of a word. It takes place when the r sound is attributed to a schwa, which is represented as ə.

Therefore -- the point being -- in using the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA), the word would be spelled as such:fə~. The tilda in this post represents a sort little,squiggly mark made on the schwa when denoting rhoticity..

The etimology of "schwa" by the way, is of Hebrew origin. It may even be of Syriac origin previous of the latter.

I love reading Russian Literature!!!

Apr 19, 2007 03:54 # 44417

MelMel *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

59% | 2

On a personal note, i tend to be iclined to run with the thinking that reason is the cause of self destruction. For me, it is knowledge, reason and understanding that lead to self hatred and destruction. I can only disgust what i understand

however on a global level, i guess the opposite is true... It seems most people are ready to freely hate that which they dont understand. This makes mel sad.

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

May 04, 2007 07:04 # 44484

jael *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

94% | 3

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

That depends, what kind of reason are you talking about. Each individual person has their own sense of direction and reasoning, to why such they did so and so.
I've seen that people can make up elaborate rationalisations to reason out what and why they did something. This especially happens when the person in question has done something society/parents/ones you love regards as wrong.

Take a relationship for example, we've got a couple who has just had a massive arguement and so in consequence, they break up. The girl gets all her girlfriends and have a big night out on which occasion she gets very drunk and sleeps with a stranger.
The next evening her (ex) boyfriend calls up and says he was very sorry for the argument and asks for forgiveness. The girl feels incredibly guilty for what she did and tells the boy about what had happened the night before. The boy now obvisiouly hurt and feeling incredibly betrayed questions how such could ever happen? They had loved each other for a while now, and just because of an argument, its not a reason to sleep with anyone else.
- Girl argues - She was angry and upset, wanted to have a bit of fun and also she had broken up with him.
- Boy argues - It's only been a DAY!

In the boys mind, there couldnt be no sensible reasoning why should would sleep with anyone else, arguments aside he still loved her and was sure (or thought he was) that she loved him too. However, in the girls mind, they had broken up. The words "broken up" gives enough "reason" to do what she did eventhough she does still love him and wants to get with him.

So put yourself in both their shoes in turn and what reasoning would you pick?

I guess reasoning to me has come to be relative to each person. So as far as your question goes, can reasoning solve all the problesm of the world....?

Well, I really wouldnt think so, Money could be the reason for so many (and is) and well, the world is still going to hell.
As for the logicpart of it, well like Null said, I think there is a sort of a mathematical logic in how the world is seriously getting screwed but we just are too lazy to do anything else about it.

The whole "lets make like and ostrich" really applies.
I live down under at the moment and we have a serious water issue, and just a few days ago the new government budget plan did not include anything about new water restriction plans or programs.
I honestly have no idea why? they constantly advertise to use less water BUT didnt but any money towards the programs that help save it.
Its seems completely unreasonable and totally illogical BUT i'm sure money has something to do with it, and I'm not sure whose pockets they are going to line this time.

For self destruction, I really think the same would apply. Instead of a government body put a person behind it, I'm sure there are a lot of people living in denial out there and reasoning with themselves that what they did was because of the situations on hand, but not really because it was the easy way out. (just an example, there are a thousand other reasoning dilemmas out there)

As for your second question

Is knowing the truth always beneficial? Is it best to have as much knowledge as possible?

Well, what is the truth? how do we know anything is true and what kind of truth are you exactly looking for?
Our existance? Our perceptions? the ol' who am I? and what and I doing here?
we have no real proof philosophically, who we are, what we are and in most situations will land up in an aporia of sorts.

I guess just I would best just try to gather as much knowledge as I know, not necessarily do I have to make perfect sense out of everything I know, as I've come to realise its sort of a never ending pit of questions when you are looking for something that has to chain up and link together.

Anyways, hope you make sense of what I've written, its just my two sense of things..

what do you personally think?

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

Jul 18, 2007 13:43 # 44806

zen *** replies...

Can reason alone fix anything?

72% | 3

In order to move through the discussion, some basic presuppositions are in order. Perhaps we should define our terms for easy understanding.

By reasoning, I take it to mean a deliberative process, such as the scientific method, or some such debate.
Assumedly, this definition would have to include "peer review"--which begs the question who are the peers? This of course, presupposes a "group" of experts--those who are specialists.
It seems to me that we already have that.

The difference is that you're talking about the deliberators becoming policy makers, and not the rhetoricians.

I see the biggest obstacle to that is social conditioning, or perhaps its human nature; but it's the schoolhouse mentality. Growing up, I recall the smartest and brightest being hated, picked on and resented. We're taught early-on to go with the flow, and not make waves. Behave, is the school's mantra. Order brings intelligence, by this standard.
Latent in our sub-consciousness is this memory. We recall in our training for "adulthood" that we get "ahead" by following along. Don't question things, or people in charge. Be compliant is our conditioning. The desire to fight, struggle, question, be brilliant is beaten out of us by the time we become adults and start working.

I look at an all-reasoning environment as that, as the beat-down on the recreation yard for being too smart.
Is this counter-intuitive; that in an all-thinking society that we would resent those even smarter? No, its not. The sad reality is that all logic, all reasoning, all thinking, et al, exists only on the blackboard, or in the books.
We've tried this experiment, it's called Communism. Communism did away with churches and "thoughtless" pursuits, such as art. The Dark Ages, and Crusades can be seen as a time when reason ruled Civilization.

The pinnacle of a reasoning society could be The Borg, from Star Trek. That's the purest form that I can use as an example. Machine-like logic is as good of a way to rule the universe as any, right?

I think the problem with any approach that presupposes one single solution will cover all problems, is that it's bound to fail. One problem is that it doesn't take human nature into consideration. It also doesn't take into account all the varying elements that we need to make us whole, complete people.

The question to me really should be this: will logic, reasoning, and the deliberative process, tempered by empathy and compassion, be enough to steer us from our current direction?

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

Aug 07, 2007 12:37 # 44839

Magicdead *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

94% | 3

Reson can do nothing. really, absolutely nothing. it won't change the world or anything.

now, why is that so? because reason is a tool, and as such, per definition, a tool can do nothing on it's own.

You could use it for good or worse. And then again, it also depends on how good a tool you got.
For Example, in summer there are more icecream sales, and in summe there is more crime. Which leads to the conclusion that icecream is responsible for crime. Which is a classic logic fallacy. It's even so classic, it's got it's own name, cum hoc ergo protpter hoc ("with this, therefore because of this") ;) But to some people it seems reasonable (ok, with other examples).

Like a screwdriver, you can use it to build a machine that solves all our environmental problems, or you could stick it into your coworkers head because you envy his girlfriend.

And well, even if you want to argue on sciences with reason. well, some hundret years ago when railways where invented, there where some people, also scientists, who argued that humans shouldn't travel at 40 mph, because it's was dangerous and unhealthy for the human body, because we weren't made for such high speeds. Which is completely ridiculous to us today, but was considered very reasonable back then.

And then again, there are the cases where our "knowledge" even interfears with reason. given the choice for 2 places to spend the rest of my live at (only concerning the safety aspect), an nuclear power plant or an airplane, i'd chose the power plant. i guess most people wouldnt. If you take reason and test both, you'll find that a nuclear power plant (nowadays with like 5 self-sufficient failsafe-systems, some of them not even thechnical, but working due to physical laws) is way safer than an airplane, but still, quite some people would chose the airplane, because of tschernobyll and so on. Because our knowledge tells us that something is bad, and went pretty wrong, even though our reason tells us that all those flaws have been taken care of. Ok, not the best example, but i couldn't think of another one at the moment.

And then again, for reason in non-emotional/non-personal issues (the girlfriend/boyfriend thing from before clearly only depends on eachs point of view) you need complete knowledge to truely apply reason. Like solar power is so good, it uses the suns energy with almost no waste, so not using up precious natural ressources. It's reasonable. But well, most solar power cells today use poisonous substances in their creation, like arsenic acid, and production of solar cells (at least the standard type) produces a lot of CO2. ok there's a lot of research going on and i hope they fix this stuff in the future, but my point is that with incomplete knowledge, reason is flawed.
And well, "The wish is father to the tought" applies quite often as well ;)

And well, we as humans as such can never know everything, our brains are just too small, and scientifically spoken, the uncertainity principle forbids complete knowledge.

which leads to the conclusion, while reason as such might be one of the most powerfull tools of the human race, it can never be applied to it's full potential, it's will always remain flawed, imperfect and as such it can never solely solve all our problems.

And about the self-destruction thing: reason and logic alone cannot save us from selfdestruction, due to the points above. Imperfect logic and reason still leaves room for failure. but it may put the chances in our favour ;)

You only know if knowing the truth is beneficial, when you know it, at which point it's already too late, so i guess, nothing you could do about it except from denieng the truth. but as this is a personal choice/opinion, you cannot find a universal answer to that question, imho. But when it comes to use of reason, knowing as much as possible if beneficial.

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools have always done the opposite"-Schopenhauer

Sep 24, 2007 16:12 # 44955

capitalpunish * replies...

Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 2

I like your base but it’s got to have more depth if you want to solve problems.

About this Boy friend girl friend thing. The first priority is for determining fault and reason is to determine base/ ground work. Relationships don’t work themselves into perfection. People don’t make decisions to fix everything 24-7. The girl was upset, so she said "I want to have fun..." So when she purposed to do such she took her boyfriends idea of (break up) as an excuse to serve self along with self pity. Then when the boyfriend said he was sorry she thought (oh crap) I didn’t think about fixing this, I thought about myself only. Did she really want to fix this with reason? I think she was only thinking of her own situation and keeping herself afloat with interaction of motive to be still in action instead of her with her boyfriend she replaced him with a one nighter. Do you see there was no reason or purpose other than self?

Reason doesn’t work with self. Long term anything takes serventhood. So listen to this example.

A girl who was 8 years old gets brutally victimized and grows up thinking all men suck. But when she is 20 years old she says to herself, "life has got to be more than this". So she buckles down and says "if I can I will". So she see a guy who seems to be descent and she gives him a little slack. After a while she realizes he is a jerk because he wants to service himself only. So she perplexed, "why try anything with men. So she thinks about possibilities with women. So she finds a nice girl to comfort her and after a while realizes this seems to be more of a balanced but it seems to be based on timely circumstances vs untimely. She wants kids and wants to be a good wife but this situation only provides a feeling of pleasure and peace. What she decides she wants is a relationship that can sustain time, trials, heartache, chemistry, pleasure, and morality that gives extra peace of mind, and to be a satisfied so she feels perfected. So she goes to church and learns a different way of thinking. The church teaches her that God has put her on earth for one reason. That reason was to choose a certain pattern of life that brought her closer to God. Then she learned that God performed a miracle to make purpose for living here and for living eternally with Him. She dint quite understand it all but there was enough there for her to make sense of what Gods purposes were but not hers. She still felt like all these bad things were happening to her and she deserved better. So she reasoned to put her life into a different scenario. She thought what if it had all turned out perfect. Then she realized something. She still would have to make some choices about this God thing. So weather here life was good or bad there were still choices. Had she made the choice to suffer for eternity, or the choice to look forward to an eternity? For the Bible teaches that one sin committed towards God means that you will have to pay for that sin with innocent blood. You can’t use your blood because it is not innocent. So how does this complex meaning of reason come in to play? God shed His own (innocent) blood and said if you believe in me I will cover your sins and you can spend eternity with Me. So this Girl starts to see a bigger picture. Even though some idiot had taken advantage of her, God still had an eternal plan for her. So she reasoned to say Because that man was an idiot, not God, I will reason to follow God and spend eternity with Him. God didn’t allow her to get hurt in a sense that she would be eternally damaged. Only in a way to show her she was in a sin filled world that will use any REASON to get what they want. (SELF). So if you want to be Satisfied, I feel that the girl would be best of if she accepted that she was a victim of selfish people rather than of God’s torture. This was caused by mans free will. But she was put into a place to consider reason which can hopefully lead to clear thinking, which can hopefully lead to a real purpose. Her purpose was to find out what she meant to God. God said He loved her and would seal her eternity of safety if she would try to serve Him as well as others. By serving we give ourselves something to look back on and be purposeful. Then if we do what makes us purposeful then we can build from a base to more and more purpose that leads us to less stupid mistakes. (So if the chick up above had said well maybe this isn’t the man for me, maybe she could of said let me regroup and see if it was something I did that made this go down hill instead of getting so revengeful and selfish.) Note: You can be the nicest person in the world but if your doing it to look back at yourself and say “I am the bomb and everybody should worship me and give to me and suffer for me”, then your no different than Satan himself.
He was so selfish that he felt being so good should lead him to being worshiped. Think about it. If you serve God and serve others, you become humble and less prone to making worldly bad decisions. To follow the bible doesn’t mean you have to stop having fun, it just puts your real goal as eternity with GOD. Most Christians try to live both lives and it becomes a mess because they want to play and be selfish and at the same time they want to be proud of there “great walk with God” and that pride has to be covered up with “well I only do this because my life was so bad before excuse”. That crap doesn’t work. One cannot have 2 masters. It’s either God or Self. If you serve yourself God says you can spend all eternity by yourself and that means without him. A place without God is Hell.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Sep 27, 2007 13:32 # 44965

oKtosiTe * replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

60% | 2

The church teaches her that God has put her on earth for one reason. That reason was to choose a certain pattern of life that brought her closer to God.

And then the post seems to go on assuming there is such an entity as "God", which, in my humble opinion, cannot be explained with reason.
I believe that turning to God to find satisfaction and to cover your sins is in fact selfish, while serving others is not.

Or is it?

Sep 28, 2007 02:13 # 44966

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

42% | 4

So if turning to God is selfish then so would this be.

Your a young kid and your dad tells you to clean your room and do your chors. Oh and he tells you to respect other and so on. Then he tells you if you dont comply you will get punished. So you go on and do your chors, but you forget to take out the trash. So your dad says you can say your sorry or get a whoopen/grounded whatever. Being selfish from your opinion would be to ask for forgivness. I dont get it. Especially if you are truely sorry.

Just because you dont see God as an entity, doesnt change what He is. He says He sees us as His children whom He loves dearly. So much so he took the whoopen for us. Then He said He wishes none to perish but all to have everlasting life. Then he gives us the Chor list. When we screw up he gives us the consiquence but not punishment if we try our best to please Him. He says if we choose not to believe in Him we will spend eternity away from him in hell. That doesnt mean He doesnt love us, it means He wont choose for us. You have chosen your road, you can change your mind. But as I see it whatever we do wont change who he is. So if I say I dont believe in gravity and jump out of a plane, Crap happens. Because you cant see God with your eyes "cant see gravity" doesnt mean He doesnt exist. You only know when you jump out of the plane so to speak what is real. When you die your eyes will be 100% open. 20/20 hindsite vision wont do a bit of good. There are millions of ways to see he exist, Scientist see it every day, and so do I. If you close your eyes like a little kid doesnt mean you get out of reality.
Every one can still see you.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Sep 29, 2007 21:25 # 44967

oKtosiTe * shakes his head...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

60% | 3

So your dad says you can say your sorry or get a whoopen/grounded whatever. Being selfish from your opinion would be to ask for forgivness. I dont get it. Especially if you are truely sorry.

I think threatening your child with "a whoopen" will not make them be truly sorry for not putting out the trash, having him/her understand why it needs to be taken out and why it is his/her task might.
As a non-believer I have nothing to fear.

Because you cant see God with your eyes "cant see gravity" doesnt mean He doesnt exist.

But I can see and feel gravity. Objects fall downwards.

There are millions of ways to see he exist, Scientist see it every day, and so do I.

Yet none can prove that he does.

When one is convinced of something, one is more likely to notice things that support ones conviction and it is easier to ignore evidence against it.

Or is it?

This post was edited by oKtosiTe on Sep 29, 2007.

Sep 30, 2007 18:03 # 44972

jael *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

92% | 3

Okay about the girlfriend/boyfriend thing. It was simply an example to portray the difference in thought process between two people and many persons. Not necessarily what the girl did was right, for in her mind they were broken up. They wouldnt get back together, she wanted to forget about it, she wanted to forget herself so she slept with another guy. It didn't even mean anything. But depending on the kind of people you would meet some would understand, and some wouldnt, again because of the thought process of each individual.

REmember reason is only an explanation or a justification for what you have done.

Everyones thought process is different.

And when the did this conversation become about the Almighty?

I fail to see how your answering the question really.

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

If you believe that God has all the solution, and you're doing what good you can do in this life to ultimatly be with him. That would plain and simply be your choice. But it doesn't have to be anyone else.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are putting God up as the ultimate reason. God is not the ultimate reason. He could be the reason for all the choices you make, but he isn't the yard stick by what everything is measured. Your answer seems more like a sermon than rather what is being asked.

I've read your post and still am reading your post to get the answer of where really is.

Everyone has their own choices to make in life, its the justification behind the choices that we call reason. The girl you talk about might turn to god because of the experiances she has had in life, thats where reason comes in as this in "this is the path I choose to take because I see a future there" she could very well turn to other things, for example continue to try new men/women out and see what makes her feel at peace.

God doesn't give you all the solutions in the world, you give yourself the solutions conciously or subconsciously. Whether you believe that it was God coming to you in your dreams or what ever is a comepletely different subject.

God didn’t allow her to get hurt in a sense that she would be eternally damaged. Only in a way to show her she was in a sin filled world that will use any REASON to get what they want. (SELF).

So if you want to be Satisfied, I feel that the girl would be best of if she accepted that she was a victim of selfish people rather than of God’s torture.

What are you saying here? Everyone does things for their own reasons, good, bad and ugly!
A victim of selfish people? YOU are the VICTIM of your OWN CHOICES. Everything that happens to you in directly or inderectly related to the things you do. ofcourse you deserve better everyone deserves better, but the things that happen to you are there to make you strong and provide you with a better knowledge of mankind, selfish people in your words, so the next time you don't pick someone that is a jerk.

Going to God and living life for him seems like an escapist form of view. you have one life on EARTH! Live it, expierance it. Dont complain about what good or bad is done, feel hurt and pain joy and everything, you seem to forget that without rain you would never know what sunshine is, And truly, love and hate and joy and pain are from the same origin. And why live preparing for eternity when you CANNOT PROVE it exists or not. And a book that tells me it exists is not exaclty the best proof. If I beleived every book I read that was deemed worth of my utmost faith, I'd believe in a cow flying over the moon.

Oh... and don't get me wrong, I'm not athiest. I believe in God, very much so. But I also believe it reality and in being practical.

So before giving a sermon about what God did for me and all that, read the question. God wont save me from my own mind. If my mind believes in the way it does and has its own reasoning I could kill myself and self destruct. It doenst matter how many religious places I go to. There is no saving to be done there, a mind is a mind is a mind is a mind. And it will have its own reason and logic.

P.S Please space out your post in paragraphs, it's easier to read.
Thanks.

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

This post was edited by jael on Sep 30, 2007.

Oct 02, 2007 03:08 # 44977

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

45% | 4

think threatening your child with "a whoopen" will not make them be truly sorry for not putting out the trash, having him/her understand why it needs to be taken out and why it is his/her task might.

Ok I was a little vague for the disiplinary action. My full thoughts are that a child only gets disiplined in the order of his/her amount of purposeful wrong doing. So if they purposely ignore your cause then they get a whoopen.(porportionatly) Other wise only actions of talking thru should be taken. So if you say don’t go into the street “coarse action”. Don’t touch that its hot “coarse action”. Do your chores “ minimal actions” Got caught lieing “coarse action”.

All this to say it is for REASON that we do these things. I have seen kids who get time out and it does not work. I have also seen kids that get whoopens and it doesn’t work. I believe it is the realationship that causes learning. A small fanny whoopen with a small rod has never killed anyone nor hurt them long term if use the right way. But non disiplinary action killed kids all the time.

In saying that. Reason this “ A rational ground or motive” If I want to teach my kid to kill. What good would it do for your kid. The Reasoning that I don’t teach him/her to kill is because he/she needs disipline into rational thinking and not creating unthought ful kids. Kids are born 100% selfish. All they care about is themselves. If they are not taught respect they don’t just get it. The also see love being taught when we whoop them for running into the street in a blitz. They MUST respect the nature of a car. If we did not teach them that they wouldn’t learn very well. If we just pull them away we are only teaching them not to do it when we are around. Severe punishment teaches them serious consiquenses before they get killed.

As a non-believer I have nothing to fear

As a non believer in paying taxes, I have nothing to fear. Until they catch me. Then I can use any excuse I want but I will have to pay. Believe what you want, But don’t use any excuse when you get caught. Just say “I didn’t think you were real so be nice” HA what kind of a response do you think youll get? You will pay, Unfortunatly, and it will take all eternity, and you never pay for it all. This makes me sad because you just don’t care. And if you did care you think GOD should have done it different. God said “by faith will we please Him”. You have no Faith.

But I can see and feel gravity. Objects fall downwards

And if you looked you could see God as well. But you REASON “sufficient ground of explanation” only to the extent of what sounds good to your believe. So if I gave you a Reason to believe God, you would only believe what you want. And for the purpose of being able to prove there is a God, The bible teaches that it is only those who truly seek him that he will open there eyes. At least until the Judgement.

Yet none can prove that he does.

1. All Human DNA links to one mother 5000-7000 years ago. ALL HUMANS 100% provable.
2. Einstiens Theory of relativeity has been true enough to show the expanse of the universe in biblical terms. But the speed of light is slowing down which shows that things will not alwways be the same.
3. If the world were a million years old the Sun would be to hot for life to exsist. 100% provable. As Well as it is shrinking,
4. No bone could last very long on the surface of the earth. The only way bones can be preserved for thousands of years is if they were covered very fast and covered with billions of tons of water turning them into rock. So that is what the flood did 4500 years ago. Imagine you’re an animal and its starts raining for a month straight. So you run for high ground, you meet up with a mountain sliding down, then you get covered in mud, then you get turned into a rock. Then 4500 years later, when you get dug up, some suggest that you where there for millions of years. So let them. It would have been too HOT for you to live. HELLO.
5. The oceans are getting saltier. So 4500 years ago they would have been all unsalty. But things progess and 2000 years from now they will be too salty.
6. All animals create the same spicies. There is NOT ONE piece of proof that we evolved, Even with them looking every day for 150 years. In fact we are “DNA wise” getting weaker and loosing information. That is 100% the opposite of evolution. In fact all of the proof they used to have about thing getting better like the eye, we find even the simplist eyes have all the ingedients to make a full eye with color-depth and focus. Meaning in didn’t evolve it was just complete.
7. The very fact that you are breathing air is unique and can only be explained by a window of 1% of perfection for life to exsist.
I could go on but even with these proofs that the timeline and structures meet up with the bible is more than proof. There is more proof that the bible is infalible than that you even exsist. For 2000 plus years they have been trying to find a flaw and they just freaking CANT. WOW doesn’t hat mean anything. For 150 years they have been trying to proove evolution and freaking CANT, WOW!! Every last proof has been a lie or has been miniputed until we found deeper proof. Like DNA OH the simple cell. Well if it was simple then it could evolve, but if a cell was 1 + trillion little computer culculation changing every millisecond then that would be harder to explain. Which it is. No matter how you look at it REASON will only prevail if the information doesn’t carry the avoiding truth base that evolution would have you believe.
REASON is the INTELLEGENCE behind all of this. Unintelligent people don’t want to Reason. And Believe me if they can find any shred of evidence to stay unresponsible for leading the world away from God they will clutter to it like superglue.

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

What is SELF- destruction? I think it is self explanitory. You serve yourself and it destructs itself by wanting more and more and more.

Going to God and living life for him seems like an escapist form of view

And what are we escaping from? I truly think we see that there is no other way to live forever without going to HIM. If you want to make your own way there, maybe you should start by being almighty and perfect, Which I am not. So I figure thru REASON that maybe believing in something that can only be proven to be true and has only doughtful people to question it as fact, I am thinking maybe they are doughtful because they really arent looking.

And why live preparing for eternity when you CANNOT PROVE it exists or not. And a book that tells me it exists is not exaclty the best proof. If I beleived every book I read that was deemed worth of my utmost faith, I'd believe in a cow flying over the moon.

Unless that Book has more than 1 million reasons to believe it is from God and not Man Made. There are so many codes and supenatural and significant consistansies in the bible, There is only one way to believe it is not of God. That would be by believing that some idiot told you it was not. The Proof is in the Pudding. That’s a GOOD REASON?

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 02, 2007 07:11 # 44978

null wants to know...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 2

There is more proof that the bible is infalible than that you even exsist. For 2000 plus years they have been trying to find a flaw and they just freaking CANT.

For 150 years they have been trying to proove evolution and freaking CANT, WOW!

Wow, where have you been hiding for the last few centuries?


(PS, everyone knows that there's just one true religion!)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Oct 02, 2007.

Oct 03, 2007 02:47 # 44985

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 1

(PS, everyone knows that there's just one true religion!)

Have you remembered to keep your sacrificial pipe clean and well used, Null? ;)

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 03, 2007 07:07 # 44986

null replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

Have you remembered to keep your sacrificial pipe clean and well used, Null?

Of course! And it's always prepared for extended periods of GFD praising the next time you're flying to Europe. :-)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 03, 2007 11:56 # 44988

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

It'd be sacrilegious not to come and partake. =)

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Nov 05, 2007 05:35 # 45192

zen *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 1

Wow...mised that one first time around....
LOL!! that's a great post.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

Oct 02, 2007 13:54 # 44981

jael *** takes out her flame thrower...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

86% | 3

I am not going to waste my time debating with someone who refuses to even look or consider another way. There is no point, this is a dicussion between people, not an imposition of thought.

If you want to walk through life wearing blinders and thinking the way you do, it is completely your choice and I have no problem with it.

There is an difference to voicing your opinion and imposing on someone and what you are doing is the latter.

I dont know how you can call a pure and innocent child/baby 100% selfish. They are the closest thing to "God" you can get. So innocent and naive.

All I can say is believe in what you want to, but don't ask me to even begin to think your way. I will choose to do and believe and fear in what I want to.
I got one life, I'm not going to waste it living in fear and not experiancing life the way I want to.

This is where I end it. Your preaching to the wrong crowd. We have a lot of Christians on this board if I'm not mistaken here, but no one imposes thought on another.

Oh and by the way, I was beaten up as a kid. It didn't turn out well for my perants or me. AND as a kid who was beaten up. NOT ONCE do you think that what you did was wrong. You develope FEAR and HATRED for people you shouldn't and its a down right fucking shitty way to live. Two things happen then, you either live your whole life as a person who lives in fear and insecurity or you rebel against everything and anything that tries to conform you until and unless you understand why it is happening, and why your parents are that way.. AND EVEN THEN it takes a long time to get over it and finally be at peace with yourself and your parents.

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

This post was edited by jael on Oct 02, 2007.

Oct 03, 2007 11:18 # 44987

MelMel *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

95% | 3

But...

you see...

do you..

how can...

I don't know where to start with your post. Firstly, you need to learn basic spelling and grammar. "doughtful" had me in hysterics on the floor. And now i'm hungry for bread.

It seems to me that your key argument throughout your post keeps coming back to this idea of reason.

one thing in particular struck me (pardon the pun) in your interesting opinions on disciplinary (note the 'c') punishment. Don't you think the best way for children to learn is through reason itself? physical punishment causes a child to learn through fear. and yes, perhaps some of the time they may make a reasoned connection between the pain/fear and the point you are trying to make, ultimately the lesson they are learning is "walking onto to road is bad and results in pain for me" instead of "walking onto the road is a bad idea because it's dangerous and i might die". now there may not seem to be much difference in those statements... until the child reaches a stage where they overcome their fear of the parent/guardian. they need to be able to learn reason and respect through logic and experience. say a child skips school and gets suspended and you beat them. they will be afraid to do it again, but will they understand the myriad of reasons why it was stupid? will they understand the waste of money, time, resources? will they realise the consequences if there was a fire at the school and their name was on the roll but they weren't on schoolgrounds? would they understand that they are creating more schoolwork for themselves? do you plan and spanking a 6 year old to teach them? a 10 year old? 14? 16? 17 and 11 months. they must be able to rationalise and learn as an individual. it is up to parents to give their child this skill. a good parent does not need physical punishment.

a parents ultimate job is to raise their children to be able able to cope and thrive in the adult world in all aspects of life. if you cannot beat an adult, you cannot beat a child. i'm at a restaurant and a man wont leave my friend alone, this is bad and dangerous. do i hit him to let him know? no. it's assault. hitting a child is assault. giving birth does not give you the right to abuse someone. if you lack the ability to raise your child through this "REASON" you seem to feel so strongly about then you do not deserve to keep it.

i'm sorry, but i'm going to have to stop myself now before examining your other insightful comments.

I wish i had 'faith'. i want a REASON to sound like a jackass.

-melmel

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

Oct 03, 2007 14:15 # 44989

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

"doughtful" had me in hysterics on the floor. And now i'm hungry for bread.

I love you.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 03, 2007 16:04 # 44990

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

45% | 5

This is exactly why I am writing these thing. Excuse the grammar. I am glad I can make you laugh. I dont care how I spell. In fact it makes it more real that I speak from my heart and you are worried about my grammar.

You all are missing the disipline deal. Wrong disipline leads to world failure. Like it is today. Very few if any get proper disipline. Most get beaten, some get thrown in daycare, some get ignored. If one truely loves there Son/Daughter they will disipline them with respect, not anger. With love and not hate, Patients and not short fuse wrath. If you do not see disipline as a tool to mold them into respect with love. I and my brothers had proper disipline and we have all thanked our father for giving us whoopen to save us from the real dangers. I in one hand would rather get a whoopen than become a druggy fool which is hard to unhook from. Or get a whoopen rather than become a lazy lump. Or get a whoopen instead of getting killed cause I lipped of to the wrong person. When I got a whoopen, he would set me down explain how I had refused to to the right thing. Explained that we had gone over the result of purposely breaking the rule, then he would say I get the whoopen "not a blistering, brusing, hateful, mean whoopen but a I wish I didnt have to do this, but you must see you need to think harder next time. I would get the whoopen, he then would say you paid the price so it is over and now lets go on with our day. There was no hate, no bitterness, Cause it helped me to respect authority. WHICH OUR WORLD TODAY LACKS SEVERILY!! SO Now I have thanked him. If you think there is a better way you are inventing a new lie, Thats why the world is falling apart. Because your parents did it wrong and you are doing it wrong. I dont have to explain it anymore. It is so clear that is the Reason that we start off wrong.

No you cant spank an adult. They are past the age of learning respect. If they dont have it yet they are most likely stuck in that pattern. Take a prisoner, if they get to watch Tv and play in prison what is they punishment. It was originally designed to create punishment so that they would relearn they must have respect. Sorry they get treated with go to your room and they dont learn crap. Most prisoners reaffend so they can laugh at the fact they dont get punished.

Kids are born SELFISH. Take a baby when he doesnt get his bottle, or his binky, Or a 2-8 year old who throws him/herself on the floor in a tantrum. Or a one year old who throws stuff off the table just because you said not to. Oh ya, they know when they are past one or so that they can completely disobey. They arent stupid as you would have them. It not that we have to be the king and they have to obey me because I am so great. Its because if we dont teach them REASON they will screw everybody. Most of you dont get it because your stuck in la la land, the land where if you think positive all will be well. BS.
It takes effort to eqaul results.

The whole point about this REASON discussion is "WE ARE NOT getting better as a society" because we are listening to false REASON. Reason that tells us if we just say the right word or if we just dont get serious about our disipline then we create little angles. It just the opposite. Me and 80-90% of my friends got whoopens when we where young. We all are the most giving and and real people I know. Most of us will help anyone in need and give our last dollar to feed someone. But we dont steal, lie or cheat on our wives as well as we all have longterm loving relationships with very "VERY" well behaved and loving kids" Who would also give there own clothes off their back. 90% of all the kids they go to hang out with at public places "Lie, steal, throw tantrums, make faces, dont listen to authority and yell with alot of bad language. So whats up with why REASON can Fix everthing, But False Reason cant fix CRAP.

SO there is a solution to world peace, But it would take a disiplined world to recognise it. If not you wont get 2 people that agree on anything. Which takes REASONING. Which takes truth. Which seems to be hiding because most would like to ignore it.
I am Done so have fun.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 03, 2007 23:06 # 44994

MelMel *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

74% | 4

Do me a favour and never reproduce, and move to australia where it is mandatory to have a Working with Children license to be in any position of power over children.

you are ignorant, misinformed and pitiful. you are what is wrong with the world. i have no problem with you believing in religion, i wish i had the mental capacity to do so myself, life certainly would be easier. however you use physical force to make up for your stupidity and lack of ability to rationally communicate with a child. Hell, you can't even rationally communicate with adults. not once did you respond to anything i said with REASON, you merely repeated your previous posts. of course you need to hit children to make them understand when you clearly lack the education and mental capacity to reason as an adult.

yes, children are selfish. but how will hitting them help? they will learn that desire = pain. children learn the most obvious lesson. your assaulting them will be remembered while your explanation will not. how dare you punish a child because you are too stupid to clearly explain yourself. how you function around people and in the workplace is a mystery to me. i am 19 and manage my own store and after conversing with you for 2 minutes would never hire you.

Which leads me to my next point. 99% of my friends were never beaten. they were raised as i was on reason and understanding. of this group everyone of them is at university successfully studying Medicine, Law, Engineering, Science, Journalism, or Business Management. i was accepted into a scholar's Literature program which i left after 6 months despite my grades of over 90% to continue my work to earn enough money to put myself through a specialized theatrical technicians course which will allow me to work in Europe or USA and essentially set me up for the rest of my life with as much work as I could ever want or need in a variety of different fields. My day job as i said earlier is to manage one of the busier bookstores in the state. Tell me that we are what is wrong with the world. we are successful intelligent young people who will lead the world away from people like you. we will heal your children, lead your countries, build your automobiles, run the economy, write novels plays and poetry, create works of beauty and explore the universe.

Oh, and i'm still chuckling at the fact you believe the way to world peace is hitting children. put that on a bumper sticker or t-shirt and see how you go. come back and let us know.

you are pathetic. you are an abuser and in some countries (Such as my own) you would be locked up and have your children taken from you for your behaviour. You will be punished for your actions. Faith in God does not make you immune to His wrath.

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

Oct 04, 2007 03:52 # 44995

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

58% | 4

Man I wish I was done, but you make me want to talk forever.

If I was An abuser then I would do as you say. Create fear to take away pleasure. I dont abuse anything. My child and I are able to enjoy everyday together and he plays with all kinds of different kids. He is one of the most respected kids wherever he goes. Soccer games, movies, church, camp, and neighborhood. He knows how to have fun without being sneaky and mean, destructive or dangerous. I encourage him with anything he wants to do and we work on wooden cars, legos, bicycle ramps, dirt holes,as well as games and puzzles. He does not have anything to FEAR. I love him. He knows that if he wants something he asks, if he breaks something he tells and no matter what he tells the truth. He knows I wont punish him for that.

So seeing your a bright 19 year old and know everything. Please have some kids so they can give you a treat. When their older and have their kids you can make sure with the great world you will be living in with rapist and molesters and murders and drugatics, "that cant fit in the jail system". Make sure you have fun looking for another planet to move to. Because if you stay here you will be the one getting bent over, and not for a whoopen.

And if I am ignorant, misinformed, and pitiful- why is it that you have no words of any kind of wisdom? You havent raised any kids to their adulthood. You havent said anything that would fix any problem. Yet I have fixed 1000's of problems with dozens of businesses and have many thousands of friends around the globe. Your wisdoms seems to be calling other people names so you can make yourself feel better.

Oh and its so funny how you get "hitting kids" as your main theme. I say a little whoopen to a completely out of control child and you insert a full crap beating. My whoopens wouldnt hurt a child for more than 5 seconds. They create a type of atmosphere that an adult doesnt have to have. Adults can reason " unless they are a fool".
You must be a complete genius to think that an adult getting a whoopen is the same as a child. Children cant reason, they only learn to reason when they are put into a position of attention by action that causes their head to gain wisdom. If you try to reason with a 2 year old he wont even know what on earth you are doing. Putting him in a room or corner doenst to him not to throw a tantrum. It only causes him to hide it better. There are a million ways to teach a child but the bible," the oldest book of wisdom around teaches whoopens". Read (Proverbs 19:18 Chasten Your son while there or is hope)or (Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of correction will drive it far from him) or (Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell).

It sounds harsh but you need to put it into perspective. If God would of thought it was ok to be a fool he would NOT have put any disipline rules in there. But in His mind it would be better to get a whoopen than go the hell as a fool. He also says a fool cant reason about him. He says "Only a fool says in his heart there is no God". Weather you believe or not is none of my business, but I would rather die by stoning than see you go to HELL. Sorry but if you could see truth like a parent can see for their child, You would see why God is in no way wanting to see you go to hell.

I have show reason. You show dreams of a perfect world. I put it into perspective. Thats reason.

you are pathetic. you are an abuser and in some countries (Such as my own) you would be locked up and have your children taken from you for your behaviour. You will be punished for your actions. Faith in God does not make you immune to His wrath.

Why would I be pathetic, Because you sound like you dont have anything to say but BS? You havent given one reason that any truth exsist. You havent provided any evidence of anything. If you are so smart, look up Kent Hovind. He has 1 million dollars available for anyone who can prove evolution. So far no real proof exsist. It takes more faith to believe there is no God than that There is. Thats not Pathetic or crazy. Its clear and you are the fool.

Dont worry I was once where you are. But Truth prevails when you look for it. When you have no respect for the Truth all you get is bable. I have provided all kinds of debate material and you have provided the you think you know it all. I am waiting for your brain to unlock and poor out some breath taking evindence as to why you believe by REASON that ther is no God or why you believe that you can get the results of a perfect world by hard work alone. If you work hard some idiot will want what you have and take it. So where does that put you??

We already have laws that make it illeagal to do anything yet crime still pays. Jails keep getting bigger. How are you going to get those numbers down.

I have given what I think makes our Reason most prosperous. Following God will make us Happier, stronger, eternal, and when He gets done with this world like he did in the flood. We will have him to rule over us. And then only will we see true peace!!!! Until then there aint a chance. The only reason I say that is because He says that. The ways of the world lead to death (eternal death)

Where is your wisdom? And what is your base?

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 04, 2007 07:30 # 44996

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

80% | 4

You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell

Now I'm getting tired of this bible crap, but I gotta say, if I ever have children and they obviously try to mess with me and do everything within their power with the sole purpose of pissing me off, I'm gonna box their ears.

And I'm saying that as someone who has spent a significant part of his childhood at a boarding school which was led by incompetent jerks whose concept of 'upbringing' could be summed up as "do whatever I say, no matter how stupid or unjust, or you'll be sorry."
Now that's arguably the worst thing you can say to a child. The only thing the child will learn is that you can do whatever you damn well please, including abusing the others, as long as you're stronger than them.

Above all I think a child should know and understand the rules. Of course, being a child, it will test their limits and try everything it can think of to get away with bending or breaking the rules. And that's when punishment is appropriate - when the child understands that it's being punished for breaking the rules, and at the same time learns that breaking the rules has consequences.
Whether that punishment is a verbal reprimand, house arrest or a smack around the ears depends of course on the situation. It goes without saying that causing bodily pain should be used as a last resort.
Still, most of the time it's not the punishment but the possibility of punishment that prevents a child (or adult, for that matter) from breaking the rules. And IMNSHO, just as important as punishment is to abide by your own rules, too. And that's what many parents neglect to do.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Oct 04, 2007.

Oct 04, 2007 07:50 # 44998

jael *** isn't happy...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 2

I have show reason. You show dreams of a perfect world. I put it into perspective. Thats reason.

No my friend, that isn't reason.

and your not showing me anything besides YOUR perspective. Nothing else, and it's not one I'd like to entertain my life with.

I don't understand what reason is in your dictionary but in my and i'm sure many other it is a an explanation or justification or an event.

I'm going to repeat that because I"ve said this before and it doesnt seem like you got it at all

REASON IS AN EXPLANATION, A JUSTIFICATION FOR A CAUSE OR AN EVENT.

God NEITHER a cause, nor a justification nor an explanation.

What I don't seem to understand is your constant need to prove the fact that God did this and what you are doing is right. By all means, it might be, could be, and is a decent way of living your life. But that doesnt mean anyother way besides yours is wrong. There are a million people in this world, and that many ways of living life. Your merely a spec in the differences. Why the need to prove yourself and your way.

Now please answer this, what is your problem with my thoughts, views or decisions. You've made it clear that you are refusing to even look or try and see that we are having a DISCUSSION.

Again, this is a DISCUSSION your imposing your THOUGHT ON US.
NONE OF US LIKE THAT.

I'm writing in capital letters because I dont want to hear about the BIBLE again if I want to know about it, I'll read it myself thank you. Unless you have something DIFFERENT to say, say it or dont bother writing.

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

This post was edited by jael on Oct 04, 2007.

Oct 04, 2007 10:25 # 45000

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

Do not withold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell).

What kind of religion are you into exactly? Since when we should interpret the bible literally? If you do that, then I assume you also believe in do to others what they do to you. If they punch you, you'll punch them back and so forth.

At any rate, I agree with null here. You guys stop with this crap. Punishing kids by beating them up will lead to nothing if not hatred. When my nephews misbehave (they are almost 8, almost 5 and 3 years old) they are put in a corner without doing nothing for a while, and they soon come back to their senses. They have never been beaten by their parents, and they are the most adorable kids I know.

At the same time, only reason won't do anything to the kid. If they misbehave, the parents should take some actions. Actions that are never physical though, unless they do something very dangerous that might endanger their life (like a 3 years old kid trying to cross the street alone after he was told not to do that). Only in that case it could be done, even though I'd rather avoid the whole thing to begin with.

To Mel: I think it is a little hard to talk about things you haven't experienced yet. I have the experience only of my nephews, because I don't have kids of my own yet. I know you're bright and intelligent, but this is not all. You're still only 19, so despite all, you might not have a full experience of things (not saying that I do, but I am at least a little older than you, and have experienced more things in this world).

When I was younger (and hey I am close to 25 only!!), I strongly believed that the world could be change and bla bla bla. Unfortunately I have already realized that this is just a bunch of crap. World will not change, because there aren't enough people interested in changing it. And Mel, you say that people like you, bright and so forth, are those who will rule countries, save children and so forth. Well, I honestly hope that this new generation of yours is not going to be like this generation of politicians, doctors and so on.

My suggestion is for both of you guys to stop arguing like this. It will lead to nothing, because in any case you're both keeping your own ideas, and won't accept anything else. I am not even getting into siding with one or the other (even though I kind of stated my opinion).

On a side note: children have been abused in the past and will be in the future. It just takes 1 bastard out of a thousand good parents for kids to be abused. Just so you can relate being Australian: think about what the British have done to the Aborigines. The trend was to take the kids away from their parents in order to have them marry British people to destroy completely the darker race.

Unfortunately we can say how bad, wrong, horrible is to beat a child (and I can't agree more to that), but things are not gonna change. There are always going to be people who will hit their child when they do something bad. In other words, I think this whole discussion is kinda pointless :(

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Oct 04, 2007 12:40 # 45001

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 1

Just so you know I showed you 3 verses from the King James Version of the bible. I know ther are a 100 verses that say you treat others how you want to be treated but that doesnt apply for the training of kids. If so they wouldnt be anything but spoiled. Those other verses are saying how you should treat others in respect to business, help, marrige, and to a certain extent it could imply dont over disipline. I want to be disiplined right. Not over disiplined, so Thats how I would do it. I wouldnt want 25 years in prison for stealing a piece of candy from a store. Not that I would but...

Reason From the dictionary: A statement offered in explanation or justification. :a sufficient ground or explanation or logical defence, :The thing that makes some fact intelligible (CAUSE) <want to know the --- for problems> :The power of comprehinding, inferring, or thinking esp. in orderly rational ways :the power of the intellect by which man attains to truth or knowledge :to persuade or influence by the use of reason.

Well I used reasoning to tell why I think reasoning only works if you have solid truth. My points were that the bible and God have lots of evidence of exsisting and bringing results, (good results). If we reason that we can fix something by not doing anything or by wrong reasoning we get nowhere, even if it sounds good. Example. If I am going to plant a lawn and I want to know how to get good results of a plush green yard, then I would get some knowledge of the subject, then REASON what I should do. If I talk to someone with the Greenest grass a plushest grass in the neighborhood and he says do this this and this. But the guy down the street with a brown yard says do thi this and this. I would reason it out and thats what I would work towards.

You guys arent reasoning anything. I have had success and so i share it. I also share why I believe I have and will have even more success by REASONING. (and no it is not because I believe in whoopens). Success has been thru solid truth reasoning. (You can achieve temporary success by watering the yard with fertilizer, but dont over do it or you will have a brown yard like the guy down the street.)

I to, use harder disipline as a very very last resort, but with out it there would be a society like the one that is coming up.
Polititions that use lies and force to get in place. Presidents who sleep with prostitutes. Presidents who help governments buy nuclear technology to use against us from us. Presidents who help get money by helping drug lords. See they werent raised right, or they would respect life. Instead the are selfish and screw us.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 04, 2007 12:53 # 45002

ginsterbusch *** is getting sarcastic...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 1

Amen.

*SCNR*

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

Oct 04, 2007 13:55 # 45004

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 1

Honestly, I read what you just wrote, and for the first time sense I started keeping track of this thread I finished one of your posts Capital, and frankly if it weren't for reading everyone else's responses this would sound like utter drivel.

Granted, I'm not saying it isn't but what is the point you are even arguing anymore? I noticed your are shifting the conversation away from something that people here seem to just not agree with you on, or at least you are trying to anyway. You keep mentioning the solid truth. Well I hate to tell you this, but regardless of faith a several thousand year old book that's probably been mistranslated by people over the years, and is constantly interpreted in no less than a dozen ways per passage isn't exactly solid. In fact, history is a very liquid thing period, due to how accurate records on historical events are, and recordings way of just disappearing over time anyway. So no, you really don't have a solid truth to base any argument on if you are going with the Bible.

But I'm not particularly certain that I want to waist my breath on arguing with you too much. But keep up the post whoring, sir. I kind if giggle at your lack of spell checking skills and partial inability to use the shift key.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 05, 2007 02:53 # 45006

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 2

Well, what is the truth? how do we know anything is true and what kind of truth are you exactly looking for?
Our existance? Our perceptions? the ol' who am I? and what and I doing here?
we have no real proof philosophically, who we are, what we are and in most situations will land up in an aporia of sorts.

Well I hate to tell you this, but regardless of faith a several thousand year old book that's probably been mistranslated by people over the years, and is constantly interpreted in no less than a dozen ways per passage isn't exactly solid

You all are bringing it up so??

You have obvoiusly not studied the bible because the statements your making are like telling a car mechanic that cars cant run on gasoline, thats just what people are led to believe thru propaganda. yet millions of people buy gas every day.

Do you really think that it is impossible to see truth? If that is the case you are stuck man. With out truth we can do anything we want, there are no laws. Nothing can be considered wrong. If the bible was wrong, buddy, believe me it would be in stone by now. There would be news medias with super printouts of it at every page and on every website. If they could find a contradiction or a place that made no sense or was MISTRANSLATED they would love to burn it. My point is its people like you who say things without really knowing anything except rumors. I here 20 people every day teach about it. I listen to the Preacher station every day as well as many other talk radio shows. Savage, Rush, Sean H. I would say that some teachers for sure try to twist it around a bit. But it is pretty easy to tell its not in the bible because they will tell you "This is how it was interpretted to me" right there begins a problem. Even a young teen can read the bible and understand it and how to interpret it. You dont need to be taught how to read it.

It is not like you say. It is cut and dry. It is so easy to see it is not mistranslated because there is the same message on every page. Jesus is God/Lord- you need a savior-God is in control. The stories , the history, the flood, kindoms, prophecies. All are backed up with historic fact and proof, over and over again. So much so it is reguarded as the most accurate history book in history. Oh but the idiot down the street that hasnt studied it but can make the comment it a pack of lies or its wacked. He's just pushing it away because he believes that there is no way to know. Its like having 40 people over thousands of years tell you with 66 books that we are going to need God and heres how. OH and all their stories line up 100%. If it were not so, the world would have it on every billboard. It is the only truth that keeps making the WORLD go insane. They dont want to hear it. Just like the bible prophecied 3000 years ago.

You really have to wonder why a person would want to hang a healer and a miricle worker on a cross. If I said I could heal your every need right now and did, why would you want to kill me. Must be something to do with people not wanting to see help as a good thing. Thats why it is so easy to see that you are blind.

Utter drivel this, you are either going to see that Reason thru God will prevail or you wont. Either way I win.

If your in a big toilet bowl and someone reaches out his hand to lift you and you refuse, you will join the rest of the crap. No matter what you think, there is truth, you just arent able to see it like the Billion that do. So what if 6 billion want to believe there isnt truth. I always new there were more blind people than seeing. The bible teaches, "wide is the gate to hell and narrow the path to heaven and few there are that will find it". If your not looking, believe me you will not find it.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 05, 2007 04:08 # 45007

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

93% | 2

You have obvoiusly not studied the bible because the statements your making are like telling a car mechanic that cars cant run on gasoline, thats just what people are led to believe thru propaganda. yet millions of people buy gas every day.

Well, if we're going to get started on personal insults then let me say that you obviously haven't passed an English class beyond probably sixth grade. Further more you are mistaken, I can study a text without believing in the philosophical or religious teachings in it. Also on that note, I have given Christianity a shot, and in fact attended church for several years with genuine intent on understanding and accepting the faith however my own rationality refused such.

Now that we have that out of the way. Lets move on to the rest of your ramblings. I don't really think you have much of a point anymore.

I listen to the Preacher station every day as well as many other talk radio shows. Savage, Rush, Sean H.

Oh yes, and Rush Limbaugh is certainly a prime example of Christianity. If I'm not mistaken his teachings are currently heavily influenced by over the counter medication and his over all superiority complex. What next are you going to tell me you hang on every word of late night Televangelists?

Even a young teen can read the bible and understand it and how to interpret it. You dont need to be taught how to read it.

Yes, and an eight year old can accept Jesus even though he can't grasp the language of a King James bible. Or was it church camp with what amounted to 24/7 brain washing of horny teens with no privacy? Oh, you can understand what's written in Cosmo Magazine as well but that doesn't necessarily make the top ten list of ways to get your man off the truth.

hey dont want to hear it. Just like the bible prophecied 3000 years ago.

Ya know who else had prophecies that people don't really feel they have to believe? The Mayans, Nostradamus, and several other people of various backgrounds but that doesn't make them the end all of knowledge. But I'm sure you're going to come around with the whole cryptic language argument, but I've read Revelations and I don't quite recall there being anything plain as day in regards to a sheep sitting on a thrown and a lady riding around on the back of a dragon. Unless of course we're all on acid when the world ends, I don't quite think it's going to look anything like that.

You really have to wonder why a person would want to hang a healer and a miricle worker on a cross. If I said I could heal your every need right now and did, why would you want to kill me. Must be something to do with people not wanting to see help as a good thing. Thats why it is so easy to see that you are blind.

Oh yes, it is a crying shame that if such a man actually did exist that he was thrown away by the government in control, but this has nothing at all to do with our argument.

Utter drivel this, you are either going to see that Reason thru God will prevail or you wont. Either way I win.

So is this part done with you screaming as loudly as you can with a cheesy accent and hitting me in the forehead with your palm like they do on TV?

If your in a big toilet bowl and someone reaches out his hand to lift you and you refuse, you will join the rest of the crap. No matter what you think, there is truth, you just arent able to see it like the Billion that do. So what if 6 billion want to believe there isnt truth. I always new there were more blind people than seeing. The bible teaches, "wide is the gate to hell and narrow the path to heaven and few there are that will find it". If your not looking, believe me you will not find it.

For starters, I'm not wallowing in shit. Also, you forget about all those other people with strong faith in something not Christianity. I'm sure they have a spiel similar to this but honestly, I haven't paid much attention to missionaries of any religion other than to politely smile, nod, and wish them a nice day before closing my front door or continuing along while I'm at the mall. By the way, its really fucking rude to knock on a stranger's door and expect them to want to listen to a sales pitch. That's why door to door marketing has come to a swift end for companies.

Edit: Oh and would you please be kind enough to learn how to use the quote function, and not quite two different people in one post where the argument seems to only be aimed at one person. I'm not a lobbyist for this site, just a long time user, so unless Null or Jazz would like to dub me official spokes person, aim your comments at individual people and respond to one post at a time. Thank you.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

This post was edited by Salvial_Ten on Oct 05, 2007.

Oct 05, 2007 06:55 # 45009

null wants to know...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

I think we've already had the 'infallible bible' discussion several times. For starters, I'd be particularly interested in how you'd answer these questions.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 06, 2007 05:43 # 45011

jael *** takes out her flame thrower...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

You all are bringing it up so??

You have obvoiusly not studied the bible because the statements your making are like telling a car mechanic that cars cant run on gasoline, thats just what people are led to believe thru propaganda. yet millions of people buy gas every day.

YOU HAVENT EVER ANSWERED ANY ONE OF MY QUESTIONS, JUST GAVE ME MORE CRAP ABOUT THE BIBLE. DONT IGNORE MY POSTS LIKE YOU'VE DONE SO FAR AND THEN PICK ON ONE OF MY OLDER ONES!

SO ANSWER THIS!! AND A SIMPLE ANSWER DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF SIMPLE

What is your problem with me believing in something other than Christianity.

UNDERSTND THAT?!

Can you?

Can you understand that there are OVER 6 BILLION people on this earth ...

Not all of them believe in Christianity

AND IT IS OKAY!

You are not everyone's personal saviour.

Have you heard in the phrase

LIVE AND LET LIVE?
This is why wars start, this is why religeous wars start

It's because of People LIKE YOU! who HAVE to impose their THOUGHTS on everyone else.
You dont know how to live in peace!
Its like your on a dinner table and there is a someone eating corn and someone else eating meat, so the one eating meat is forcing the corn eater and telling him CORN IS BAD EAT MEAT CORN IS BAD!!

Do you not grasp the concept of personal preference or diversity?

FUcking hell there are religions OLDER THAN CHRISTIANITY that exists.

DOnt you DARE blatantly ignore my posts and questions and THEN!! pick on one of my older ones.

SO ANSWER THIS!!!

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH PERSONAL PREFERENCE?

WHY ARE YOU SHOVING CHRISTIANITY MY THROAT?

YOU ARE NOT MY PERSONAL SAVIOUR AND I DONT NEED ONE, AND IF YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY AND THINK I'LL GO TO HELL.

I DONT FUCKING CARE!

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

Oct 06, 2007 06:46 # 45012

capitalpunish * replies...

Reason only works with truth

I have three problems first that I wish I new how to fix. When I dont know something I will admit it. So dont harass me about these first issues.
1. My computer is taking 5 min per screen only with this site. Something is wrong??
2. I dont know how to drag other persons words so they turn blue.
3. I am anything but a computer literate and yes I suck at English. I have a mind that can build things for hydralics but the writing skills of a donkey. Sorry. I dont know where spell check is and dont want to write this in word first.
Ok.
Why do I think no other way but Christianity?

Well I believe in proof. I have studied the basic four religions that are popular and I cant put it into a book (not simple), but yo it isnt even close. If you saw what I have seen in studying and could go where I have gone you would know why there is no comparison. I want to see truth, not some guys perspective. The bible gives 1.Gods perspective/view 2. The writers perspective and view(but only what God wants us to see) 3. Begining and ending details and angles (Women riding dragons) that only make sense when you study it.

Why am I pushing it on anyone?

I understand this. You can believe whatever you want, but my guess by your language is that REASON doesnt matter. "So if there is a hell oh well". There is no way one can argue that with someone who wont actually see the proof. That is what it comes down to. The stupid saying (lead a horse...). Whats the point I ask myself. Why try to teach someone something that I have learned by looking at the evidence if they dont care?
Its because it is so clear and I am willing to sacrifice being hated to attempt showing you reasons to see it a little different.

Look at just these simple basics.

Mohammed died from being poisened by a woman he was using his religion to get into her bed, never rose again, and loved his 10 yr old wife along with a huge list of changing circumstances.

Joseph Smith died in a gun fight where his was taking hostages and using his religion to get into womens pants.

Jw's take a different view where they will become god and make their version of the bible inconsistant with itself. They have also had to change there words a few hundred times to make it work with there thinking.(documented very clear).

So people who believe in their way, I guess buy into there twisted life styles too. I agree there is a whole lot of bad things said about the bible, but thru its bashing it actually explains itself clear enough to hold more than just water.

If you dont want to hear it you will have to kill us all. Part of what we do is to shout on the mountains. It will never stop, and that is the reason it says in the last days people will stick us sticks, burn us and, chop our heads off. We will not kill back in a way that causes us to kill you.(If we are truely a Christian). We actually look forward to getting on with the afterlife.

Why not pick on the Guys who like to blow up innocent people and kill their own family members if they turn from the religion that governs their country. If any religion sounds wacked. These people will kill you if you dont believe. They have and they say that they will forever. And they say it is peacefull and billions follow this crap. Thats what it is CRAP.

I urge people to at least look and see the proof ( I dont kill them if they dont agree). I want them to succeed, meaning I fear for them.( I dont force) But I do urge.

A liitle kid could care less if he gets abducted (if he doesnt know it can happen). We can urge them to care and pay attention. We can even show them videos and harp on them until they get it.(DO NOT TALK TO STRANGERS)Over and over again. They think we are crazy until we can get the fear in them.

I dont see this in any other way. Other than there are some stuburn kids out there. No Reason. No care. No Help.

So if 6 billion people say it is fun to jump off a cliff and land on the rocks, I am sure you would listen. Its real good reasoning... So have fun, Its OK.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 06, 2007 07:43 # 45013

jael *** replies...

Re: Reason only works with truth

?% | 1

1. I have no idea why your computer is taking so long to load the pages.

2. To make the quotes blue, highlite the sentences you want and then

[ cite] Enter selected sentence here [ /cite]

There are no spaces after the [ and the cite, I only did that so you could see how it would work

And thats how it will look

3. We do urge members of this board to double check their English, as many users do not have English as their first language, so this makes it easier for them to understand aswell if written in correct English. Minor typos are understandable.

Well I believe in proof.

I do too, now

1. I am not Christian, I'm Hindu.

2. I respect my religion very much and do believe in it so don't expect me converting christian any time soon or ever for that matter.

3. If you want to see me as falling of a cliff and falling onto rocks, thats your way of seeing things. I'm a happy and spiritual person, and believe in peace and I have never wronged anyone intentionally. So I dont believe that I have a live an eternal afterlife in hell.

4. I dont even believe in a HELL and HEAVEN.

5. My perpectives in life are different than yours and I don't see it being wrong neither do I see yours being wrong, I respect it for what it is. But what I do see wrong is you urging people.

6. Everyone has their own life and their own reasons to do things. For you Reason is truth, for me reason isnt truth. For me there is no ultimate truth because we can never actually be sure.

But that is my perspective to believe that, my life experiances have told me that, I have learned that through life. You coming onto this forum and preaching will not attract me to convert. Infact I find it a little insulting to my beliefs and honestly if you want to sell your religion to me, atleast give me a better sales pitch.

(Not that I'm going to even think of converting to Christianity)

And honestly you have no right to condemn our religion or ways of thinking and say your religion is better than anyone elses. You religion is just one in a million like everyone elses.
What your saying, I can go up to any fanatic for a religion and they will do the SAME giving me "proof" of how their religion is better and the righteous one.

For God's sake, give up.

And I wont kill anyone of you, I just pity you how you can't see someone else's happiness. I don't want to live for an afterlife, something I don't even know exists.

I will live this life to my fullest and never deprive myself of any kind of happiness.

They have and they say that they will forever. And they say it is peacefull and billions follow this crap. Thats what it is CRAP.

Don't even get me started on how many "christian" wars there have been, every religion has its own wars. Which personally i think is the stupidest thing, but don't say that one religion will kill and will forever, while yours doesn't, cause yours does too.

Simply put, don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house.

I urge people to at least look and see the proof ( I dont kill them if they dont agree). I want them to succeed, meaning I fear for them.( I dont force) But I do urge.

I don't agree, I saw the proof and I think its a load of BS. Besides, I was brought up Hindu, so why, tell me WHYY... I should listen to someone that tells me this is right, when he doesn't know who I am, what I do, why I live the way I live and what I believe in?

Doesn't make sense. It would go against my own logic to do so.

So if 6 billion people say it is fun to jump off a cliff and land on the rocks, I am sure you would listen. Its real good reasoning... So have fun, Its OK.

Haha, well I have a parachute, and its gonna be one hell of a ride down.

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

This post was edited by jael on Oct 06, 2007.

Oct 07, 2007 00:13 # 45022

capitalpunish * replies...

Reasons that cause

Well Jael,Thank you for your help with the forum. So I actually have to type the [ cite] after it is highlited.

3. If you want to see me as falling of a cliff and falling onto rocks, thats your way of seeing things. I'm a happy and spiritual person, and believe in peace and I have never wronged anyone intentionally. So I dont believe that I have a live an eternal afterlife in hell.

I just tried it so if it not blue I did it wrong.

Ok. I respect you actually will give some feed back to paint some pictures.

Lets do some reasoning one sentance at a time.

Who started hinduism and why and what does it say about how we became into exsistance.

For example:
Bible says we were made from Adam and Eve and the one proof we have is that DNA shows all mankind came from the same mother 4000-6000 yrs ago.

Bible says that God wrote it thru man by inspiration, We have 66 books by 40 authors over 1500 yrs of time of which when I read it, show a consistant theme of us needing to be clensed by the shedding of innocent blood. Then it goes to an extreme to show over 100 different ways of seeing innocent blood purposes and reasons we are cursed with sin.

I believe that if we are more than 6000 yrs old on this earth that there is not much clear proof of it. If so what?
So by haveing a start for christianity, I feel the bible descibes why, when it went thru the story of genisus-Adam and Eve and an instant beginning. If there is proof of evolution, I would love to see it? Becasue this would obviously disprove GOD.

This is Not shoving it down anyones throat. It is only a view from certain perspectives. I want to Reason out if it is valid to have a base of principles.

My computer seems to be faster today (with this site). However, sometimes it says I have to wait 20 hrs to post something?

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 07, 2007 07:30 # 45023

jael *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

Who started hinduism and why and what does it say about how we became into exsistance.

To explain Hinduism, would be difficult cause from what I understand, you tend to believe in one and only one thing. Hinduism is a very very diverse religion and has not one but many many ways of believing. So lets just leave this out, because i dont feel like proving my religion, or explaining myself.

Bible says we were made from Adam and Eve and the one proof we have is that DNA shows all mankind came from the same mother 4000-6000 yrs ago.

If that is correct then we would all be white according to theory.
But there are black, white and brown people. So doesnt that prove evolution?

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

Oct 08, 2007 15:00 # 45031

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

45% | 3

To explain Hinduism, would be difficult cause from what I understand, you tend to believe in one and only one thing. Hinduism is a very very diverse religion and has not one but many many ways of believing. So lets just leave this out, because i dont feel like proving my religion, or explaining myself.

Well this is the reason that I cannot reason this. I dont want to spend 20 years studying to find out if Hinduism is for real. I see Christianity because it has a huge clear base in Genesis. One that holds water in the scientific age we live in. I want proof as to why you believe in Hinduism. See I have studied the basics for my whole life and I have heard the big bang theory, evolution in school. I have friends who believe in Budda, I have friends who are mormans. But where the rubber meats the road is why do they believe what they do? I believe in what I believe because it makes more sensible sence than the others. (but thats after looking at it for 20 + years)

I cant get one Hindu or one muslum, or one morman to tell me anything but that they FEEL like it is truth. I dont feel like the bible has a backbone, I can see it, I can talk about it, I can shout it, because it is Justifiable. Not one person will come up with a base for their religion so that we can compare(reason) as to why it makes sense.

If that is correct then we would all be white according to theory.
But there are black, white and brown people. So doesnt that prove evolution?

Ok so you dont understand DNA learnings. Thru the study of DNA we have learned that the information is down grading with every birth. So I will use dogs as an example.

All Dogs also link back to a wolf type animal as their original base. But over the years DNA information gets stained out thru breading. So it took thousands of years to get the types of dogs we have today (we will say German shepard) But you cannot go and make a german shepard go back to a wolf from the origin. The reason is it doesnt carry all the traits down. It leaves the some off with every birth. This only happens when the line is pure or new. So we will say for practicle purposes that 5000 years ago every animal had more pure DNA. Meaning it was stronger, had more variations, had deeper color, had more irregularities at birth (Some black some white some brown)so to speak. So being man we have pushed to breed special kinds of dogs and go down that line so far that it isnt even possible to see major changes in birth with color and shape and so on. It still happens a little but you wont see two German shepards come together and make a dingo.

Back as Adam and Eve were made, every birth would have been unique. And because they lived so long and DNA was so strong it didnt cause problems that imbreeding causes today. Not to mention when you are first put on the earth you wouldnt even think of imbreeding as being bad because all you new would be what you had. So imagine that Eve had 60 kids. She lived to be over 800 yrs old. So from 40-500 she could have had kids like crazy. Ok so now imagine that 1/6 were black, 1/6 were brown, 1/6 were whitish, 1/6 were redish, 1/6 were chineseish, and 1/6 were something else.

Now due to human research we know we like to make clicks(gangs/matches). So most of the blacks would like other blacks and move some where and some of the reds like reds so they move somewhere. Then say you are Cane and you dont want to be around reds any more so you go find a wife in Nod where they are more brown. So anyways this makes sense. Not just sense like I want to believe this way but it combines science today with information from the bible and they line up. So if I would like to see another religion get some credit, I would want to see equal results.

This is why I am not racist, nor am I against interacial marrage, nor am I against equal rights, nor do I think that white is better than any other color. Can this be a form of reasoning that makes sense as to some of the anti world peace suckers, that I am closer to having a reason to be better at reasoning world peace because I see us as equals? I believe the Noah and his sons and their wives when they got onto the boat(ark) were either close enough to the beginning of fresh DNA that they could make more colors or that they were all married to different colors because they were attracted to that color more. (meaning they all werent the same color) Both are unknown, but I see that global separation started with Abraham and Hagar and Sara that people were recommmened to stay separate, thus creating societies that are what they are today.

Do you see my point as to how reasoning can make more sense if there was a true(truth)base? DNA is a great tool to use because it to is infalable. It tends to be a very strong piece of evidence. But only if we can study it. It would do nothing for us if we didnt look at it.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

This post was edited by capitalpunish on Oct 08, 2007.

Oct 08, 2007 22:46 # 45037

Salvial_Ten *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Reasons that cause

?% | 1

Wow...just...wow. I don't think I've ever read anything more ridiculous in my life. In fact, I was going to commentate on just how unlikely it was for a woman to spit out kids in even ratios of color, but then I kept reading. It honestly isn't that likely that she lived for 500 years, nor do I believe she would have just been a baby making machine. Besides, you eventually hit a point where you no longer produce eggs as a woman, and thusly go through the titanic pain in the ass that is menopause. But I'm sure in your outlook on where people came from no such change of life existed. However, I've been taught (through church might I add) that Eve's biting into the forbidden fruit is the origin of such things including how bad child birth hurts. But wait, what do I know? You've already said I've obviously never studied the Bible.

Oh and that changing of DNA and loss of traits you mentioned when talking about how a German Shepard can never go back to being a wolf? You do realized you just explained evolution at its base right? The changing of DNA through years of breeding or naturally adapting to ones environment is exactly what evolution is. Also, no one in this thread or at all to my knowledge has ever said that one day an ape jacked off into an ant pile and all of a sudden there were human beings. Nor has anyone given any official statement that man came from monkeys at all. I do believe the official stance on that is that it is highly likely that man and ape originated from the same base species that is extinct and who's genetic material evolved differently to form two different links in the genetic chain. However, this is just a theory.

I've also met Christians who also happen to be scientists that believe that it is fully possible that the big bang theory can be true and *gasp* God is most likely the cause of it. So really, it isn't that science is all about OMG NO GOD it just so happens that most of the things that have been decided as truth (i.e. the existence of gravity) are true regardless of whether or not there is some supernatural being floating around in the ether making it true.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 09, 2007 03:33 # 45038

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

39% | 3

Oh and that changing of DNA and loss of traits you mentioned when talking about how a German Shepard can never go back to being a wolf? You do realized you just explained evolution at its base right?

Certainly you didnt understand any of this. I cant explain every little detail but I sure would love to. Evolution would be the gaining and changing into something better or over coming which would mean that we improve or get stronger. What in fact my lucubratin does explain is that it gets weaker and loses information therefore if you were to make babies for the next 10,000 years we would have to be more and more careful not to imbreed and to spread out the DNA as much as possible to keep it from causing birth defects. Loss of DNA is "NEVER TO REGAIN" "EVENTUALLY TURNS INTO LESS OF SOMETHING" "THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU LEARNED IN SCHOOL"

It also means that what was originally created had fullness to it. We are depleteing. Its not like we lose a gene and another appears. Once its gone, its gone. Frankly,the evolution and the way you put it is completely a gimick. The DNA from apes to man are not even close. Though they look the same in some ways, their DNA are completely 2 differet maps. Its kind of cool how God did that so man could look like dumb asses for trying to make a man out of an ape.

There is one thing you are over looking with EVE. She was able to complete this task because she lived in different circumstances than what we live in today. All people before the flood could live to be 700-950 yrs old. Oh and you dont want to here it do you?

Genesis 1 God said there was water above the sky. Yet it never rained, well until the flood "for 40 days and forty nights". We also know that dino's were very big thus explaining a higher atomospereic pressure to hold them together which is explained by the water above the sky. Which also protects from suns radiation. Not only did they come up with a hyperbonic chamber because of this but there are thousands of pieces of information that show us that there were different living arrangments then. Metals that bond at certain ratios of pressure to oxygen levels are my main topic for discussion.

Preflood, why did they live so long.
1. Higher Atmospereic pressure "Holds animals together better (bigger fish tank effect), also creates a faster healing or less aging effect. Read up on hyperbonic chambers.

2. Green house effect from Ice crystal surrrounding globe. It would have been ice if it was above the sky. "thats why they find full rain forest under the north and south pole". Also protects from suns radiation.

4. More Oxygen which was formed from more plants which was formed from green house effect. "This helps everything to grow better.

Then it rained, All the big fat dino's that werent on the ark( a couple young ones were on the ark "2 by 2 they entered the ark") ran for higher ground and some got covered by mud slides and then got turned into rock from billions of tons of water above them. Some got smashed more than others but there were some they dig up that are pretty preserved. Then the water dried out and now is stored as snow over the nice green patches. Thus now we die younger and dino's dont get big anymore, Dragon flies no longer grow to 3 feet long, Aligators no long live for 700 years and are no longer 40-50 feet in length, and rynos no longer get to be 15 feet tall, and some, I am sure, arent around anymore due to their good tasting meat or something.

So anyways if you have a better image of this biblical view be sure to post it. Because as far as I can tell, all they teach in the evolutionary teaching is billions of years where the sun would have melted any living being to an ash. They can teach that stuff but it really doesnt match up with any real evidence.

So back to Eve. She at worst probably had 50 kids, and had many different colors, as well as living to be 700-900 yrs old. They were told by God to multiply, and so they did. If you could stretch your imagination to believe something that makes sense you would probably realize her metaposal crap probably was much later as well. See whats funny is the Bible even talks about these variation to a degree with out even knowing anything about DNA or Color issues. It talks about their skin color some as well as their vastly different hairyness. What is also unique is that DNA scientist are aware of these things, but it is not taught due to the complete destuction it would cause to evolution. There are some forms of change "micro evolution" These changes keep within the line, CATS, DOGS, PEOPLE. But "Macro evolution" has yet to have one piece of science that can prove it. "This would be a Monkey to a Man Concept". It can simply not happen. They know to much about DNA. Nor can it change into anything else,: except thru these crazy new scientific programs which kind of scare me because it could cause some really wierd things. But in normal circumstances it could not happen. And it surely could not happen by accident. There is to much information that would have to come together at one split second just to make the simplist cell change, let alone come into exsistance.

Wow...just...wow. I don't think I've ever read anything more ridiculous in my life. In fact, I was going to commentate on just how unlikely it was for a woman to spit out kids in even ratios of color,

The only thing that is ridiculous is that you think you are smart, if that is your true statement. DNA proves you wrong all the way to the smartest statement. Its simple and its proven.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 09, 2007 05:15 # 45041

jael *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

60% | 2

The only thing that is ridiculous is that you think you are smart, if that is your true statement. DNA proves you wrong all the way to the smartest statement. Its simple and its proven.

LOL, none of us think we are smart. We are, however, openminded. Which is far far from what I can say for you.

Though, it's funny how you think you really are smart after reading one book and disregarding everything else, whether you've read it or not.

It's not that we don't know how to prove what is actually true, eg, all the DNA things that you "think" you know. But rather even if we do tell you, this is fact. Your going to look back at your little Bible that and forget about everything we said and say

"NO this is right! THIS is THIS is!!! "

You really are looking more like a fool than anyone else on this board.

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

This post was edited by jael on Oct 09, 2007.

Dec 24, 2007 12:15 # 45331

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

?% | 1

Lets refrain from turning this into (another) religious debate.

I think you guys all said it best really. Logic is relative. One man's trash is another man's reasoning, to twist an old phrase. Though, if you assume that if the BASIS of the logic is that of the best interests of mankind and for no other reason, I can't possibly believe someone could purposefully doom mankind to destruction in a decision encompassing this thought process. Though, how many dictators, presidents, prime ministers, and world leaders have thought to themselves before making a decision, "Hmm.. I know that would benefit me, but would it benefit mankind???"

Almost certainly the basis for any source of logic is self-centered in nature, however even self-centered logic can benefit others. In fact, I would hypothesize that if self-centered logic never benefited mankind, we would have long since been wiped out. A car company which sells cars at a lower rate in order to gain more profit indirectly benefit all those who would then be able to buy such cars which couldn't before, for example.

Though I see our state of nuclear crisis as a sort of dark age in which the world still sees themselves as individuals, or at best, singular countries. The world would be a far better place if people did things not for themselves or for their country, but for the world. Though I don't think patriotism holds meaning for people unless there is another 'side' in which you could sway favoritism.

If the world should blow itself up,the last audible voice would be an expert saying it can't be done

Oct 09, 2007 10:20 # 45052

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

89% | 3

Certainly you didnt understand any of this. I cant explain every little detail but I sure would love to. Evolution would be the gaining and changing into something better or over coming which would mean that we improve or get stronger. What in fact my lucubratin does explain is that it gets weaker and loses information therefore if you were to make babies for the next 10,000 years we would have to be more and more careful not to imbreed and to spread out the DNA as much as possible to keep it from causing birth defects. Loss of DNA is "NEVER TO REGAIN" "EVENTUALLY TURNS INTO LESS OF SOMETHING" "THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU LEARNED IN SCHOOL"

If you can't explain it would you gladly link me to a credible source that can? And furthermore, last time I checked when things evolve meaning, they change at the DNA level they can't go back to what they once were, since the data in the genome was over written by something else. Or if you'd like me to put it in crayon for you its like popping open the binary files on a computer and changing around some ones and zeros then later on after you've crashed your system, forgot what lines and binary codes you'd changed, therefore making it impossible to revert your system back. Unlike a computer however, DNA strands don't come with a quick recovery disk. Once they're changed, for better or WORSE they are permanently done so over the course of evolution.

Also, when genetic code changes it doesn't default to getting weaker, that is usually the effect of an environmental cause that is unique from organism to organism. All because we are changing doesn't mean we are falling apart, that is the effect of age on an organism as a whole and not some crack-pot theory on how we went from being superman to what we are now. Old age is a bitch but everyone reaches it eventually.

It also means that what was originally created had fullness to it. We are depleteing. Its not like we lose a gene and another appears. Once its gone, its gone. Frankly,the evolution and the way you put it is completely a gimick. The DNA from apes to man are not even close. Though they look the same in some ways, their DNA are completely 2 differet maps. Its kind of cool how God did that so man could look like dumb asses for trying to make a man out of an ape.

Sorry Paco, but I'm afraid it really doesn't work that way. The man and monkey argument isn't quite relevant yet, because you seem to be missing a very important step in evolutionary theory. Genetic code just doesn't stop existing for no reason, it isn't like we sneeze and lose a bit of DNA sequencing. Nor do we magically get new DNA information out of no where. What happens is that old information used for functions the body no longer needs to perform eventually morph into a more useful one. The code for the old function is lost but that's fine sense it's technically irrelevant. I think you actually attempted to make this point earlier but you did a very poor job of it.

Preflood, why did they live so long.
1. Higher Atmospereic pressure "Holds animals together better (bigger fish tank effect), also creates a faster healing or less aging effect. Read up on hyperbonic chambers.

2. Green house effect from Ice crystal surrrounding globe. It would have been ice if it was above the sky. "thats why they find full rain forest under the north and south pole". Also protects from suns radiation.

4. More Oxygen which was formed from more plants which was formed from green house effect. "This helps everything to grow better.

First and foremost if you can give me an exact verse and book in the Bible that maps that out perfectly feel free to share it, I'd like to know where God explains how much oxygen is in the air. And of course since I'm fairly certain you are going to be able to provide that I want a citation of scientific research that backs up your conclusion. Failure to provide both will be followed by the drawing of the "Bullshit Card" which is exactly what this is.

However, I will say it is probably that there atmosphere was much cleaner, seeing as though there us research into the effect of green house gases on the ozone layer. But last time I checked that tied in with the silly scientific mumbo-jumbo that doesn't count as fact to you. Or am I totally misinterpreting your dogma?

So anyways if you have a better image of this biblical view be sure to post it. Because as far as I can tell, all they teach in the evolutionary teaching is billions of years where the sun would have melted any living being to an ash. They can teach that stuff but it really doesnt match up with any real evidence.

I have no idea where you got this one from, care to explain further how we'd all be burnt to cinders without the magical text of the Bible telling us that evolution is wrong?

The only thing that is ridiculous is that you think you are smart, if that is your true statement. DNA proves you wrong all the way to the smartest statement. Its simple and its proven.

...all the way to the smartest statement? Which one? You mean my entire post that you decided was all rubbish? And again, I'd like links to the research that declares the total body of most DNA research in terms of genetic evolution to be bullshit. Also, I'd like the book of the Bible in which Jesus preaches about genetics and things that people a couple of thousand years ago had no idea of the existence of.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 09, 2007 14:24 # 45056

MelMel *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

?% | 1

Oh null, can we work the bullshit card somehow into nao?

Similar to soccer.. Yellow card...Red card...

You made my day jami.

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

Oct 09, 2007 14:55 # 45057

andromacha *** has a suggestion...

Re: Reasons that cause

60% | 2

How about we simply ignore his extravagant theories and replies to this post? It's obvious that if we keep arguing, he will never let it go. It's like pouring gasoline on a fire instead of water. So probably the wisest should just cut it out, stop being offended for the idiocies this guy is bringing up, and not step into this thread anymore. Maybe if this is done, he will stop aggravating us. There is no need to pull up a red card, I don't think. The act of ignoring him completely should be already a punishment to him, considering how much he's probably enjoying seeing your replies to his post, so that he can post back and write some more of his crap.

Of course, if he wasn't content with just abandoning this topic, and started to bring up more shit some place else (e.g. spamming) then we should be more than welcomed to ask null to kick him out :P

But until then, I would say to just stop increasing this thread, thus giving him more reasons to blurt out more of that.
Just my 2 cents of course.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Oct 09, 2007 15:39 # 45058

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Reasons that cause

I was about to put my moderator's hat on and ask him to stop spreading the gospel here, but I've been told that most people on this thread want him to keep posting. As I understand it they find his statements highly amusing.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 09, 2007 23:32 # 45063

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

Andromica, the way I see it is eventually he'll run out of ideas. I want to know where his theories one existence come to an end and I am just dying to know what all they encompass.

In fact I was a bit saddened to log in and see that there was no reply from Capitalpunish. Oh well. Maybe he'll be on later.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 09, 2007 15:49 # 45059

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Reasons that cause

Oh null, can we work the bullshit card somehow into nao?

Well, I figure if somebody draws a bullshit card I can host it here as an image... or maybe a button to send the post author a random picture (goatse, tubgirl, lemonparty)?

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 09, 2007 23:30 # 45062

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

*bows* I do my best to entertain and please, Mel.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 10, 2007 16:06 # 45068

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

46% | 3

And furthermore, last time I checked when things evolve meaning, they change at the DNA level they can't go back to what they once were, since the data in the genome was over written by something else.

What I am talking about is loss of information. Evolution teaches the gain of information. For example, I cant seeanything so evolution teaches I need eyes, so they become? Then I cant smell so evolution says I need to smell so I grow a nose. Have you ever wondered how that is possible? By the way my point is "that kind of evolution has Never been prooven"!!

With what I am bringing to the table is that the proovable evolution is that we were once better and now we are less. Hebrew language is more advanced than any other language, and all newer languages are less information backed and more dumbed down just to make sounds. We once had the ability to have more variable offspring, and now it is rare. Example: A very dark brown and a white person mate. Then their kids mate. They eventually get lighter but but they dont get darker. Where as when the DNA was more complete, there could be very dark and very white and any color in between. This is scientific, not hopeful nore am I tring to say my way is right.

Here are some sites that have thousands of places to find information, as well as you tube teachings.

www.drdino.com
www.answersingenesis.org
www.khouse.org
www.carm.org

Ther is evedidence that we were created and that we will meat our maker some day. Wouldnt it be best to at least weigh the info and be a little ready vs not being ready at all. This is why if we CHOOSE not to believe, or if we believe with all our heart in a religion because it sounds nice, what if there is a seeable way to show truth vs hopeing to see truth. From what I gather is you all think my studies are crazy, but what I see is a bunch of people who dont have a story and just cant compete because my background has evidence and yours is a half wit expression as to how stupid I am vs you should have another angle or else I consider you with no beliefs. If you have no beliefs it because you refuse to think about information. You want beliefs that are backed by millions of years so that you dont have to think.

The bible came from after the flood. It was writen by Moses to my knowledge. As The first 5 books were possibly all writen by moses. Well Moses was alive 1000+ years after the flood. So when the details that explain the whole picture from beginning to the flood, having the information to describe in detail all of the things that we are finding out today to be 100% accurate, We tend to believe that God gave Moses the words to write, because no man could make a story with such detail and not make one mistake.

What happens is that old information used for functions the body no longer needs to perform eventually morph into a more useful one.

And the proof for this is where? And so we all lost our hairiness and our tails to get smarter brains and smaller ears. Oh and we dont share a DNA strand that is not even close to a monkey. Man I could sure use a tail more often than not. Your idea is proofless. It sounds good because you made a sentance out of it but there is no morphing going on to make us who we are. Eventually is a word used when we dont have a way of explaining creation.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 11, 2007 08:58 # 45070

Magicdead *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

97% | 6

Goddammit what is it with all the people not understanding evolution.

First of, evolution doesn't make anything better or worse. There ist just no way telling if one species is evolutionary better than others. That's scientific view of evolution, everything else is just clouded judgement. There are bacteria that can live at 120 ° C... we can't. are those bacteria better than us? No, because where we live, we don't need to survive 120°. Good so we cleared that.

Then about 50% of our Dna is stuff that doesn't directly code into amino-acid-sequences (which is the main way DNA expresses itself to build stuff), though there's evidence that some of it might be usefull. So if mutations occur there, they are unlikely to destroy anything that is needed by that individual. So new information CAN come to existance.

About the black and white mate stuff: If those two would do this in africa, they would get darker skin (ok not nowadays because we've developed sunblocker). And it's completely rubbish because evolution doesn't happen wih individuals, it always happens wih population.

About the eye, scientists know all the stages from a single-cell eye-dot on amoeba to the eye how it is today. Those amoeba go towards light, where there is plankton stuff that they eat, so the first amoeba that had an eye dot could go toward light, eat more, grow better, therefore have more ofsspring than regular amoeba. These offspring then have a likelier chance to reproduce themselves and so on, the population slowly shifts from not havin eye-dots to having them, over thousands or millions of generations. Later on having better eyes gives some an increase in fitness so slowly, over the ages, the eye gets better. E. Coli bacteria hasn't got eye-dots, they live in animal and human intestines, no light -> no benefit from having an eye. It's not about "evolution tells them they need an eye" it doesn't tell and there is no need, they just benefit from it. And well, there's way more unusefull mutations than usefull ones, so well basically, yeah, the genetic code gets worse, BUT (there's always a but) the unusefull ones have less biological fitness (meaning they reproduce less) so those mutations dimish, if they could live on the first place. This doesn't take humans into account, who keep every retard there is (biologically spoken) alive for emotional/ethical reasons. But that's not evolution. Or would you say some handycapped that can only babble and do nothing on it's own is as likely to reproduce as a strong, intelligent person?

Diagram_of_eye_evolution.svg

Evolution of the eye, each stage, also found nowadays in different species, with the benefits it gives.
The directional thing for instance, those amoeba have to spin around their axis all the time to find out which direction light is coming from, so they use up energy. So the directional seeing uses less energy, therefore leaving them more energy to reproduce, or giving them an advantage when ressources are scarce.

So basically, it's just playing dices, with good results usually living on and bad results getting killed/decimated in the progress. And this process takes ages, hundreds of thousands of years.

And well, the human genetic code isn't much larger than that of a fly, but we "use" the genes we have in a different, more complex way.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? From two theories that describe the same thing, take the easier one. And believe it or not, evolution is the easier one, as it explains what we see today without the need of some external entity.

And what's the problem religious people have with evolution, it doesn't say there's no god, nowhere. noone knows how this all started. Evolution just tells what happened after it started.

and your stuff with "ages ago humans could have black or white offspring" is completely unscientific, it contradicts everything we know about DNA or genes. And actually, if you have a Black-gene B and a White-gene W, and (as genes always come in the double) the W and the B gene aren't dominant about the other, a BB male and a WW female would have WB offspring with semi-black skin. And if these offwpring reproduce you'd have:
...|W | B
------------------
W|WW | WB
------------------
B| WB | BB

so 1 Black, 1 White and 2 Semi-Black offsprings (or that ratio if they have more offsprings) So the offspring could in fact hav completely Black offsprings again, now if White was dominant over black, a white person could never have had a black offspring, no matter whom he mated with. So your point isn't scientific...

but well, you'll just close your eyes, pretend I'd never have written this...

Ah and my source: Wikipedia and Campell&Reece - Biology (the Biology-book that is used in most Biology-classes at universities and that's always very up to date with current scientific knowledge)

Huh, I guess reason with knowledge CAN be beneficial, you simply lack the knowledge.

Ah and how is hebrew language better than languages nowadays? Do you speak hebrew and have examples? Or is it just hear-say, which i guess it is?

Look at lojban, a constructed language that is completely logical, with as few as possible situations in which it could be misunderstood, a very simple syntax and so on. And given that language is basically there to transfer information, and missunderstandings are bad for transferring information, we should all speak lojban.... But I don't see how hebrew is better at transferring information than any other language nowadays. As far as I see it, the grammar has analogys to all other grammars used today, the sentence structure is the same as english and so on. Seems to rather like grabbing straws than a real point.

And I actually looked at those homepages you posted, and though neatly packed, i can find a scientifically proven or more plausible argument to each point they list against evolution. And I'm not even a biology professor or something similar. Ok there are some points that I have to admit I'd have to dig a little to find contradictions, but that doesn't make them true.

But well, actually I don't really care what you believe in, why should I. And my time is much too precious to deal with those homepages, as you wouldn't believe me even if I did prove all those webpages wrong. And actually, science isn't about being right, science is a tool to help invent stuff, deal with problems, and so on. Understanding genetics has lead to many new meds and threatment for illnesses, understanding evolution has lead to far better breeding of animals we humans use and so on.
And the point of science is accepting theories that help, not arguing about them emotionally. Like imaginary numbers in solving 3rd degree equitions. You can't draw them on paper you can't even think of them in real terms, they are just a thought construct that helps you solve the equations (and many other things), and they are the simplest method to do so. So to hell with the "evolution isn't real" argument, you can use evolution, it helps, it's the simplest thing to use for the purposes you use it for, so use it... Saying that it's wrong and you should discard it based on a personal dislike isn't going to help anyone.

oh this whole thing reminds me of something:

beliefs.jpg

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools have always done the opposite"-Schopenhauer

Oct 11, 2007 15:22 # 45071

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

12% | 7

Evolution of the eye, each stage, also found nowadays in different species, with the benefits it gives.
The directional thing for instance, those amoeba have to spin around their axis all the time to find out which direction light is coming from, so they use up energy. So the directional seeing uses less energy, therefore leaving them more energy to reproduce, or giving them an advantage when ressources are scarce.

So basically, it's just playing dices, with good results usually living on and bad results getting killed/decimated in the progress. And this process takes ages, hundreds of thousands of years.

Ya just ad some more time, ad some more theory and.... well at least with what I can see you are just another sucker to believe the lie. The amoeba that they use with the simple eye dot. Well whichever eye that is the most simple eye still containes all the parts inside of it to tell color and distance and focus. But they just arent used. Meaning it was invented complete. Not to mention if there was an evolution like you say there would be billions of layers of in-b-tweens. Which if I understand correctly there is only some animals that are extinct that are simply different animals. Of coarse evolution will come up with a reason. They always do. Always an impossible suggestion. LIke millions of years. This earth couldnt last Millions of years. You have no idea how long that is. Nothing last forever here. Oxygen levels,hydrogen levels,tempeture, saltyness in water,deseases,and the sun. All are changing, yet it would have had to stay consistant for billions of years according to you. That isnt possible. Not within .5%.

First of, evolution doesn't make anything better or worse. There ist just no way telling if one species is evolutionary better than others. That's scientific view of evolution, everything else is just clouded judgement. There are bacteria that can live at 120 ° C... we can't. are those bacteria better than us? No, because where we live, we don't need to survive 120°. Good so we cleared that.

Cleared that my ass. You have to be kidding. Some stupid little story of which you have no proof of those bacteria producing anything at 120C nor does it work if it is hotter by 50%. It not about what can live at what tempeture. There are billions of chances everyday for evolution to occcur and yet it doesnt. So back some bazzillion years ago some amoeba turn into all this. Has anyone tell you how many times that little fella would of had to change to become all this. There would be nothing but evidence from here to the moon. Yet all the digs just show us, and how we have always been. Thank GOD for DNA.

and your stuff with "ages ago humans could have black or white offspring" is completely unscientific, it contradicts everything we know about DNA or genes. And actually, if you have a Black-gene B and a White-gene W, and (as genes always come in the double) the W and the B gene aren't dominant about the other, a BB male and a WW female would have WB offspring with semi-black skin. And if these offwpring reproduce you'd have:
...|W | B
------------------
W|WW | WB
------------------
B| WB | BB

You dont get it then either. When adam and Eve were made, they were full of available variables. Just like the dogs were and cats and all animals. This is why we can find variation around the Globe because there were animals that were displaced after some people traveling, and some migrated. But they all have a usefull DNA code to see that even with some small variations they are still from the same base. Just like us humans. Take horses for example, There are thousands of kinds and variations, Yet they are all linked back together as a beggining horse. This doesnt prove evolution, it proves that we were made better and as we multiply we go certain directions. Once you go so far in that direction, you have animals that connot even mate unless thru artifical insemination. This doesnt mean the are being more usfull or anything,it is just the loss of information. Oh we know way to much to prove that science can show truth and fiction. Its just to bad that when you are a fiction scientist you have to leave more than 90% of the evidence out. Like DNA,"THE SIMPLE CELL" Ha. Darwin was dead wrong. Thank GOD for the super micrscope. We can see the awesome design God has made in such detail. It would only take a fool to say it happened by accident. And fools Cant reason, Therefore thats why they are fools.

Every topic I bring up is completely compadable with DNA, The earth history, fossils, the suns change, speed of light changing "of which would have meant some drastic problems for good old evolution", air we breath,and most of all the importance of recognising God. He made it all so amazing and yet He will require you to admit He made it and only thru him can we be saved from its demise if we follow him. There is way more evidence of creation than evolution. But unfortunately only one is taught in school. Thats not real science either.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 11, 2007 18:23 # 45072

null announces...

Re: Reasons that cause

you are just another sucker to believe the lie.

All right. I've been watching this longer than I should have in order not to spoil the amusement your rants appear to cause, but other than incredible ignorance which borders on unintentional comedy, direct personal insults will not be tolerated.

As a moderator of this place I'm asking you not to post in this thread anymore. You're free to contribute to other topics, however if you continue to insult people for disagreeing with what you think is the truth when in fact it's just your badly (mis-)informed opinion, you will be ridiculed and banned. This is a one-time warning. If you're not happy with that you can complain to the powers that be.

(Having said that, I have half a mind to change your password to something blasphemous so that you're gonna have to insult your god the next time you want to log in. But I guess I'm just too sweet to do such a mean thing.)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 11, 2007 19:36 # 45073

Magicdead *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

90% | 3

Ya just ad some more time, ad some more theory and.... well at least with what I can see you are just another sucker to believe the lie. The amoeba that they use with the simple eye dot. Well whichever eye that is the most simple eye still containes all the parts inside of it to tell color and distance and focus. But they just arent used. Meaning it was invented complete. Not to mention if there was an evolution like you say there would be billions of layers of in-b-tweens. Which if I understand correctly there is only some animals that are extinct that are simply different animals. Of coarse evolution will come up with a reason. They always do. Always an impossible suggestion. LIke millions of years. This earth couldnt last Millions of years. You have no idea how long that is. Nothing last forever here. Oxygen levels,hydrogen levels,tempeture, saltyness in water,deseases,and the sun. All are changing, yet it would have had to stay consistant for billions of years according to you. That isnt possible. Not within .5%.

Actually the fact that everything is changeing is the reason why evolution even produces new species, otherwhise you'd have ended up with something static, and mutations wouldn't have any benefit due to new environement.

The earliest predecessor of the eye was a simple patch of photosensitive cells, physically similar to receptor patches for taste and smell, called an "eyespot". Eyespots can only sense ambient brightness: they can distinguish light from dark, but can not distinguish shapes or determine the direction light is coming from. Some organisms covered the spot in transparent skin cells for protection.

(from Wikipedia)
There's no prove of genes existing in those things that could express themselves to "better eyes"

And well, for something to be conserved for such a long time, chances are extremely low, that's why there's a lot of missing links, but new links get discovered all the time. But there is enough evidence to support this. Sure you can always explain those things different, evolution is just the most logical explanation. Of course creationists will come up with a reason, they always do...

Cleared that my ass. You have to be kidding. Some stupid little story of which you have no proof of those bacteria producing anything at 120C nor does it work if it is hotter by 50%. It not about what can live at what tempeture. There are billions of chances everyday for evolution to occcur and yet it doesnt. So back some bazzillion years ago some amoeba turn into all this. Has anyone tell you how many times that little fella would of had to change to become all this. There would be nothing but evidence from here to the moon. Yet all the digs just show us, and how we have always been. Thank GOD for DNA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_121
Sorry, my bad, it's 121° C ;)

And evolution has no goal, not complexity not nothing. It hasn't got a direction. When you apply heat to a pot of water, the water gets hot. But the heat doesn't "want" the water to become hot, it's just a result you get. Heatt hasn't got a consciousness. Same thing with evolution. Apply evolution to an organism and it may adapt itself if there are any improvements it can benefit from.
And actually it occurs. There's people that haven't got wisdom teeth anymore, though everyone used to have those before (ok not like, 10 years ago, talking about bigger time spans), diseases adapt themselves to antibiotics, there's new strains of the flu every year, where did aids come from? I mean, evolution even occurs when you introduce self-replacating programs into an environement on a computer and add a certain probability for programm code mutations similar to DNA mutations to the copying process, you end up with loads of different programs, and also "diseases", and immune programs and so on. Look up tierra if you don't believe me. And most mutations do either nothing or they cause the organism to die, and even if it is able to live, the odds are against it living long enough to reproduce.

You dont get it then either. When adam and Eve were made, they were full of available variables. Just like the dogs were and cats and all animals. This is why we can find variation around the Globe because there were animals that were displaced after some people traveling, and some migrated. But they all have a usefull DNA code to see that even with some small variations they are still from the same base. Just like us humans. Take horses for example, There are thousands of kinds and variations, Yet they are all linked back together as a beggining horse. This doesnt prove evolution, it proves that we were made better and as we multiply we go certain directions. Once you go so far in that direction, you have animals that connot even mate unless thru artifical insemination. This doesnt mean the are being more usfull or anything,it is just the loss of information. Oh we know way to much to prove that science can show truth and fiction. Its just to bad that when you are a fiction scientist you have to leave more than 90% of the evidence out. Like DNA,"THE SIMPLE CELL" Ha. Darwin was dead wrong. Thank GOD for the super micrscope. We can see the awesome design God has made in such detail. It would only take a fool to say it happened by accident. And fools Cant reason, Therefore thats why they are fools.

Actually, you can't have multiple genes for the same stuff in you (ok you can have two, but that is genetically the most to be biologically fit)

The vast majority of triploid conceptions end as miscarriage and those that do survive to term typically die shortly after birth. In some cases survival past birth may occur longer if there is mixoploidy with both a diploid and a triploid cell population present.

Generally spoken, humans with more chromosomes usually die or end up like people with down syndrome. And even those people haven't got 3 or more different genes, only copies. But there's so many genes that would have to have been present in your "human blueprint genome" that it would lead to monsters or just cellular "blops"

In 1910, Thomas Hunt Morgan showed that genes reside on specific chromosomes. He later showed that genes occupy specific locations on the chromosome.

Just to show you that having multiple chromosomes is the only way of having multiple versions of a gene. Because each gene has its specific location and you can't have two genes at the same location in time and space.

ah and actually, i agree with you. Darwin was wrong. Fact. Proven. But well you know, "his" theories have been changed, adapted to reality and new scientific research. So nowadays we are way beyond the things he said. (I could mention a book that hasn't changed in oh so many hundreds of years, but lets leave that aside ^^ )

Anyways, it's fun to watch how the creationist "theory" is evolving, and it certainly is. I mean the fact that creationism is evolving is somewhat funny ;)

Ah and... tell me please, why is it me that has to prove anything? Isn't it the religious approch that not you have to prove something, but that it is up to others to prove you wrong? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

By the way, if I live my live as it says you should in the bible, do I get to paradise even If i don't believe in god? Wouldn't my actions be even more noble because I do it on my own rather than being commanded to by a god?

Ah and well... this thread is about reason, not evolution nor god.
I really liked the topic, but not the direction it's going to know. Open a new thread or maybe this thread would be more suited for it: http://www.netalive.org/topics/35421.

But this thread here should really get back to topic.

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools have always done the opposite"-Schopenhauer

This post was edited by Magicdead on Oct 11, 2007.

Oct 12, 2007 01:15 # 45079

jael *** replies...

Curious

?% | 1

I've never really read the bible though I'm familiar with its teaching, I dont remember them talking about oxygen levels, or that white bore blacks and other things.

Is there a side handbook I"m missing?

Or did they create this whole new Biology book for the bible?

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

Oct 12, 2007 06:20 # 45080

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

51% | 4

I am sorry for the name calling. Although I did not intend him personally to be a sucker, but "sucked in" into the vortex so to speak. I learned in high school the teachings of evolution, and thru reason had to cry BS. At least the way my teacher was putting it. They just had numbers like millions of years and billions of years. Stuff we really have no way of fathoming. I am sorry if I used the site wrong. I would edit it, but cant.

As for this thread I will cease to post. I guess it would take 500 pages to get a better reasoning to what we are discussing. I only can say that for a big picture, there doesnt seem to be anyone supporting a base of which would cause reasoning to exsist. If there is no God and He didnt write the bible. What purpose would there be to glorify Him. Its glory that gets lost in teaching anything other than 100% truth. If we want to give the world credit for all of this high tech DNA and Genes and life. Then we will probably have no reason to give glory to anyone. I only see it as the world trying to clip God out of the process.

Thats not reasoning. That is pure purpose to cause Hate. Hate against those who believe God made it all. I am not against people believing in something else like it has been put in my mouth that I do. I am against all roads that lead to possible failure.

Out of all the roads, only one road says this is the ONLY WAY all others lead to destruction. All the other roads say "all roads lead to good, or God or Happiness". I am not tring to be unjust, I am just saying what if the Road that says "this is the ONLY way" is the only road thats right. That would mean all the others are wrong. If the others are right then it wouldnt matter because I would be on a road as well and the teaching "all roads lead there" would fit me as well.

Thats my reasoning, other than I feel my view holds water with some credibility. Its maybe not the way that you have been taught, But it follows the bibles Numbers and age and flood and so on. Those stories have never changed. There have been other ways people teach it, Thats doesnt mean that it is right any other way. I think it is pretty clear that if the bible did change "IT WOULD BE WORTHLESS". As far as I can tell it has only had people who change their view about it, But the text has never changed. We all do things that are "reading it wrong" at some point in time. Even Me.

I hope you all see it as simple as my Road statements. Because really it is that simple. All other roads are either 100% right, or 100% wrong. So would be My road, if We had to compare it to the possibility of nothingness. But compared to all other roads????? This is REASONING. But can it fix anything.

I hope you will let this slide Null. I will not post on this topic again.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 12, 2007 14:59 # 45083

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Reasons that cause

?% | 1

But this thread here should really get back to topic.

Agreed. I threw my two cents in some time back but if anyone else has any ideas lets get 'em on the board and move right along. =D

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 12, 2007 15:53 # 45084

oKtosiTe * agrees...

Re: Reasons that cause

If there is no God and He didnt write the bible. What purpose would there be to glorify Him.

My thoughts exactly.

Or is it?

Oct 09, 2007 03:47 # 45039

jael *** replies...

Word of the day is!

?% | 2

Today's word of the day is

*drum roll*

Diversity: –noun,

plural -ties.
1. the state or fact of being diverse; difference;unlikeness.
2. variety; multiformity.
3. a point of difference.

The fact that you cant understand how people can be different or prefer different things in life, which includes ways living, quality of life, and belief or non belief in the whole supreme being is very very ignorant.

There is such a thing called personal preference. And also NOT EVERYONE thinks like you.

Your warped explanation of how Eve brought out all the colours of the world left me speechless. And I'm supposed to prove to you who believes that one person can give out african americans, caucasians and asians, why I believe in my religion or why mine is better.

Seriously?

It's like banging my head on the wall.

This whole time, you've been trying to prove your religion to me, and I've been trying to tell you that some people like apples and others like oranges.

I'm not even insulting Christianity. Just telling you people are allowed to believe in anything they want, whether it be God, nature or a flying dildo.

From what you've told me so far, I could die laughing to your beliefs. The only thing your proving to me that most Christians like you are complete narrow minded fools who walk around life with blinders.

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

This post was edited by jael on Oct 09, 2007.

Oct 24, 2007 15:00 # 45154

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Word of the day is!

28% | 3

Your warped explanation of how Eve brought out all the colours of the world left me speechless. And I'm supposed to prove to you who believes that one person can give out african americans, caucasians and asians, why I believe in my religion or why mine is better.

See scientificly this is proven. It doesnt take any magic tricks. It isnt just my idea. All human DNA comes from one woman "aproximately" 6000 years ago. This isnt reason it is FACT. The fact that you think it is bogus leads me to believe you turn an eye to Science, Not me. Like Null above says "I only believe what sounds good and only believe things that fit my way of thinking" NO, I believe there is real science and I believe there are unbelieving people to that science.

We all have Our DNA linking us together. If you dont want to believe it is fine, but at least understand it is you who is denying fact, not me. You go ahead and go to your man made religion that has many different ways to lead yourself in the direction you WANT to. Mine is solid, and mine has a leg to stand on. Yours seems to be unspeakable and only blind faith that it has some backbone. I have yet to hear any Hindu explain
things that are fact like DNA. Therefore they do not have the ability to Reason, nor do they use reason for their beliefs.

Go ahead and laugh, But I will keep looking at the real evidence as to why we excist. I am sure Noah was laughed at while he was building an ark. But when the water was neck high, they were saying we believe now. And Yes The flood has more proof than you can imagine, But keep turning a blind eye. I am sure that when you see the truth your knee will bow to Jesus. Mark my words. If you want try and proove me wrong every day of your life. "EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD" Every mans every.

And if you had something solid to say to me I would listen, and not be offended. But what you keep saying is only avoiding any truth. You cant argue unless you can bring something to the table. And making fun of me is showing me you have NOTHING to bring to the table.

And NULL, I should have every right to be here in this argument. They all do the same stuff back at me. You only target me because I am stirring up the pot. By making remarks to me about my password shows more disrespect than anything I have said. If it is not free speech to stand, you are just like all the others who want to tune into your way. So if you want to tune me out, then you are not allowing your site to function properly. Everyone has the right to ignore, but obviously they liked the adrenaline because this thread grew quite fast.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 24, 2007 17:49 # 45155

null shakes his head...

Re: Word of the day is!

?% | 2

And NULL, I should have every right to be here in this argument. They all do the same stuff back at me. You only target me because I am stirring up the pot. By making remarks to me about my password shows more disrespect than anything I have said. If it is not free speech to stand, you are just like all the others who want to tune into your way. So if you want to tune me out, then you are not allowing your site to function properly. Everyone has the right to ignore, but obviously they liked the adrenaline because this thread grew quite fast.

No, I'm targetting you because you insist that the bullshit you tell is FACT while it's obviously not, and at the same time avoid the less comfortable questions and arguments that people (including me) throw your way. That's you disrespecting what the others have said, not to mention that some things you've stated are downright insulting to an average person's intelligence.
By the way, that's also why people asked me not to ban you - because watching you spread the bullshit and actually believe in it is way too much fun, or so I've understood it.
Oh and this is not my site, I'm just a lowly moderator, but as such it's my duty to remind people of the rules every now and then. I understand that this won't exactly make everybody involved like me better, but hey, somebody's gotta do it, right?
And one of the rules is that in an intelligent discussion, you listen to your peers' arguments, consider them and respond to them - something which, IMNSHO, you've repeatedly failed to do when it meant an inconvenience for you or your gospel. And empirically collected data on other similar situations suggests that this discussion will eventually get ugly when people get tired of you.
Which brings me back to my request that you get the "facts" you post here from reliable sources and stop ignoring posts that are inconvenient for you to answer while at the same time responding to other posts with obvious bullshit which you label "FACT" without ever delivering any credible evidence to your claims. Because that's annoying and frankly comes off as rather arrogant.

As for your password, I'm a very tolerant person, and my approach is rather simple: You respect my religion, I respect yours. You disrespect my religion, I make sure to have a jolly good time mocking your religion as much as I can. That way I can avoid being annoyed and instead have fun at the expense of an intolerant person - isn't it great how I turn negative feelings into positive ones?

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 27, 2007 06:50 # 45167

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Word of the day is!

isn't it great how I turn negative feelings into positive ones?

It is. Have you considered a career in motivational speaking?

PS: Yeah, I could contribute to the conversation for real but...why?

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 24, 2007 19:50 # 45156

jael *** takes out her flame thrower...

Be warned - this post is colourful!

?% | 2

Alright, I'm sorry to say it has come to this point. But at this point I don't give a damn. Do please DONT excuse the profanity used.

------

Do you have a problem with your eyes? Or is this selective reading?

Did you read any fucking thing that I had written down, or did your eyes go straight to the paragraph where I disgreed with your ludacris ideas??

See scientificly this is proven. It doesnt take any magic tricks. It isnt just my idea. All human DNA comes from one woman "aproximately" 6000 years ago.

Oh? really... is that so?
So smart ass, tell me. Where the hell did you get this "scientifically" proven fact? Which 'scientist' discovered this fact? Where are the theories that prove this?

And oh, a guy with a PHD in the BIBLE does not qualify.

And where the fuck do you get off telling me that my knee will bow, and my tongue will confess?

Who the hell are you to tell people on this board what YOU think THEY should believe in? And talk to us in a demeaning manner because we don't agree with you.

Especially since ALL I was TRYING to say was there are a million fucking people in this world and they are all DIFFERENT!

So, all of them DON'T have to believe in what you believe in.

You understand independant thought?

Do you understand difference in thoughts?

Do you even fucking understand DIFFERENCE?

Fuck the fact that You and I both believe that each others theory is ridiculous!

Oh oh.. waiit! I'm sorry, It is just YOU trying to tell me theories and I'm trying to point out the fact that everyone can believe in different ones.

So fuck that fact.

I'm asking. Do you know how to respect someone else? EVEN THOUGH THEY DONT BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU DO..

You said you just strong "urrge" well, honestly. You passed the "urge" line half a mile ago and if you still want to fucking play missionary, go pester some other board.

And then....You have the fucking AUDACITY to tell me! That I have yet to prove how DNA is proved in hinduism?!??

What the fuck?

When did I bring Hinduism on the table in the first place.
Didn't I mention that I don't want to argue about religion because there isn't any point. You little head would explode from even trying to understand it.

did you NOt read. I'm sure you've read the bible back to front so, you understand how to read dont you?

Just incase you missed it, this was ALSO in my last post.

This whole time, you've been trying to prove your religion to me, and I've been trying to tell you that some people like apples and others like oranges.

I'm not even insulting Christianity. Just telling you people are allowed to believe in anything they want, whether it be God, nature or a flying dildo.

And even now I'm not insulting Christianity, asshole. I'm insulting you and your intelligence, or rather lack off.
Do you know the difference?

I'm telling you not to push your religion on to us. CAUSE That is what your doing.

You think i have nothing to bring to the table.

maan.... all i can go back on, is are you even READING? I didnt put my religion on the table for you to debate it. Not because I'm "scared" like you think. But because not matter WHAT i say, youll come back to me with some new BULLSHIT about how your is right and mine is wrong.

And the funny part is, there is no RIGHT and WRONG religion. You choose what you want to be or are what you were brought up with.

Oh waiiit... again.. I'm SO sorry. You dont understand the above sentence, do you?

And as for the fact of you having the right to be on this board.

This board does not have just one thread, there are millions. Bt your stuck on this one, obviously because your out to prove your stupid reasons.

BEFORE YOU START POSTING MORE BULLSHIT ABOUT THE BIBLE, TAKE TIME OUT AND READ.

.....

P.S I should have name this post "Wrath = my favourite sin after Lust"

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

Oct 25, 2007 07:19 # 45159

andromacha *** has a suggestion...

Re: Be warned - this post is colourful!

Null, how about deleting this whole thread? I know that several people made an effort to write intelligent things here, but this morning when I logged in I found myself facing a lot of foul language and so forth, so I do think that this thing has gone too far.

Other articles were deleted in the past, so maybe it would be the case of applying the same treatment to this one, don't you all think? It seems that it is bringing out the worst from people. I don't remember having seen anything written by Jael with so many cuss words before :P (Jael, I know you warned the community in the subject of course :P and I am not upset at you or making any bad remarks)

I just think that at this point it is totally pointless who said what and what has been said so far. It is clear that on the one side we have someone who simply cannot understand other people, nor leaves them the right to argue intelligently what he states (states... bah), and on the other side we have part of the rest of the community who is taking offence at the lack of intelligent discussion (I prefer to put it like this, but I know you know what I really mean). So, maybe null you should just remove this whole thread and things will be solved. Unless mr. Newbie rewrites the same thread over again, and at that point null will be urged (to use his favorite verb) to do something about it.

Please? Can I have a little sayso in this thing? :P

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Oct 25, 2007 08:04 # 45160

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Be warned - this post is colourful!

I don't remember having seen anything written by Jael with so many cuss words before

Wasn't it James Stewart who stated that a woman is never as pretty as after a fight? And I for one am eager to see his response (if any).

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 26, 2007 15:05 # 45161

ginsterbusch *** agrees...

Re: Be warned - this post is colourful!

I couldn't agree more with you ;)

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

Oct 26, 2007 15:37 # 45162

capitalpunish * replies...

Re: Be warned - this post is colourful!

?% | 1

Oh? really... is that so?
So smart ass, tell me. Where the hell did you get this "scientifically" proven fact? Which 'scientist' discovered this fact? Where are the theories that prove this?

http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4472/

There is more evidence out there. It would take me 20 years to show it all to you. Besides your ignoring one thing as well. Wether you give a damn or not. The whole purpose is that you have no way to reason, because you are only hot headed. Where on earth do you develope reasoning skills if all you can say is we all have different beliefs. No freaking DAA. What I am Trying to reason is that you believe your way, not from an argumentive way in science, but in feelings and long term beliefs from your Hindu history. If you will study your religion and show me how it came from God and how it is to be believable, NOW that would be reasoning. You would give me something to reason with.

I dont think you have anything to reason. Just like all religions. Religion= worship of God, but if I want to worship a stick and call it God I am making something up. A stick cant make me have eternal life. Not to mention that a God that is to be worshiped must have a reason for being worshiped. My God has done something Predicted, Prophesied, Promised, Needed, on Top of it all it brings him glory. So when Jesus Died and Rose again
to cover all of our sin. It was because we Thru adam allowed sin into our world. So the year is 2007 AD for a reason. A huge world wide statement was made and it is recorded millions of ways. Just because you want to believe another way does not mean all of this didnt happen for you. And If God did die to cover your sins so you could be with him, Why would that make you mad at me. You could shove anything down my throat, but I wouldnt get irate about it.

Jesus said people will hate Me because of him. Why is it that JESUS being GOD sets off more hatred than any other reason in the world. Why does this statement drive people insane. If you stand back and look at the big picture you can see that it is called "Explained in the Bible" Hatred of the Truth.

Every other religion refuses that One statement "Jesus is LORD".
Because every other religion is of the world. If you want to believe that,it is fine. But that is the Bottom line. You are only believing in something that has no eternal benifits. You are being tricked by The "temperary" god of this world: Lusifer.
He thinks he Evolves to, Someday he thinks he will be worshiped as God Almighty. So no wonder evolution is so powerful for his teachings.

I am officially going to be complete in my point. THERE CAN BE NO REASON WITHOUT TRUTH. Thats why you have to cuss and swear, because you dont have anything else to prove your point. I pray for you.

so all of them DON'T have to believe in what you believe in.

If you want to believe that some day you will be a flower in a pot of good soil some day, then go ahead. But dont you want something that has some base to it, other than some GOD FEELING. Good feeling are fine but they can also be used as a tool for luring. If you dont think Satan is trying to lure you to Hell by keeping you in a halusinagenic state, then keep on going that way. But when you do get to the end and If I was right, then I am sorry you wouldnt at least listen a little.

I you are right then Praise God all the more, but Give me a reason to buy it.

Null this is a POST that should be free to read or not read. I am not shoving this into anyones mouth. Not to mention they have been shoving a huge deal of anger and I have not. They have this right to shove back, so let them.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Oct 26, 2007 15:54 # 45163

null announces...

Re: Be warned - this post is colourful!

Okay, I think I'm gonna have to ask everybody to stop discussing religion here. We're not getting anywhere, fundies will be fundies, and I have a feeling that this will get ugly soon.
And I swear, the next user to cite from the bible and tell me it's a fact will have their account locked and their profile filled with a sermon on the 9 Satanic Sins, because that's something every misled christian fundie should occupy himself with.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 26, 2007 19:05 # 45164

jael ***

I'm truly an idiot.

?% | 1

Alright, this is where I apologise to people on the NAO board for swearing.

I didn't swear because I didn't have anything else to say, I swore because I thought maybe capitalpunish would finally address my post properly instead of ignoring it.

If you think I'm wrong please look back at this thread and see for yourself that when the thread was cooling down, this person has constantly picked on my thoughts in my posts, and not even in relevance to the post, but taken it out of context and ignored everything else I'd written.

I understand now I've totally wasted my time even replying.

I officially stop writing here.

Again sorry for using such profanity, as I thought maybe this time, he'd "read" but oh god was I wrong?

oh and capitalpunish, leave the praying of my soul alone. I'd rather be in this hell your religion speaks of than even spend an eternity in heaven with you around.

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

This post was edited by jael on Oct 26, 2007.

Oct 26, 2007 21:22 # 45166

andromacha *** replies...

Re: I'm truly an idiot.

Good advice, null. Let's not post anything about this anymore here, but I just want to tell you all that the last post capitalpunish wrote really killed me of laughter. I laughed so hard that hawkeye had to remind me to keep quiet not to wake up the cat! Rofl!!

And, jael, you don't need to apologize for the cuss words; I can certainly understand where you were coming from, and I am sure that the other naoiees can understand it well too. So no hard feelings on yourself, ok? :)

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Oct 07, 2007 09:37 # 45024

null has all the information you need...

Re: Reasons that cause

However, sometimes it says I have to wait 20 hrs to post something?

The post limit is supposed to protect us from new users who seek to troll or cover the site with spam. You can check your current rank here and read about how it works here. However, due to the many posts asking you for a reply I've increased your posting limit for today (I can only do this on a daily basis).

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Oct 06, 2007 09:01 # 45015

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Reason only works with truth

66% | 2

Part of what we do is to shout on the mountains.

Ahem, I am Christian, and Catholic too... I have gone in a Catholic school for 13 years, but I have never heard that I was supposed to impose Christianity on other people. For this, there are priests, and they do it only to people who are actually willing to listen and change.

I think it is Jehovah's task to do this: go bugging people door to door. Mormons prefer to stop you at bus stations, be nice to you, and then bringing up their stuff (my personal experience).

Anyway, please stop trying to just impose your view of things, because people here won't listen, nor respect your posts. But you can already see by yourself that you're getting people mad.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Oct 06, 2007 09:42 # 45016

null rants...

Re: Reason only works with truth

?% | 2

Why do I think no other way but Christianity?

Well I believe in proof.

Why am I pushing it on anyone?

Well, to me it is clear beyond the shadow of a doubt that religion, especially christianity, is man-made fiction and the bible is bullshit, and thus religion as such is misleading and a waste of time which could be put to better use to make this world a better place instead of worshipping something a self-proclaimed prophet saw thousands of years ago after spending 40 days alone in the desert, accompanied only by his spiritual collection of holy mushrooms. That's what I believe and what I believe to know. To me, "saving" someone in the religious sense means getting them away from religion (esp. christianity) so they don't waste any more time on an implausible and impractical pipe dream. To me as a very scientific person, the attempts to explain away (or find excuses for) the many contradictions of the bible and to make sense out of everything are plain out ridiculous.
But that's another sign of a true believer - when a scientist is confronted with something that contradicts his beliefs, he adjusts them accordingly. The true believer just closes his eyes and prays a little harder.
If there's any religious idea I live by it's the concept of karma, albeit not for religious reasons but because I dig the concept.

Having said that, I don't go around and try to convince religious people of my beliefs, nor do I deny them the right to believe what they want or belittle/pity them for believing into something that is, to the best of my knowledge, a load of bullshit and a waste of time. Because just as I have made my mind up, they have made up theirs, and frankly it would be arrogant and presumptuous of me to think that my beliefs should be more important to you than your own.
Unfortunately a lot of religious people, especially christians, think they're something better and are doing us heathens an immeasurable favour by showing us the right way. As if we're all just waiting to be pestered into seeing the light.

And that's why I ordered a couple of Jesus Hates You t-shirts with the intention of giving them away to those annoying idiots who loudly proclaimed God's word and shove their bible in the faces of innocent pedestrians in front of the local shopping mall. Because let's face it, if Jesus really existed and he really was God's son, calling him 'outraged and disgusted' about how his name is being exploited and abused these days would probably be the understatement of the millennium.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Oct 06, 2007.

Oct 07, 2007 11:15 # 45027

Magnifico *** has an idea...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

90% | 3

Even a young teen can read the bible and understand it and how to interpret it. You dont need to be taught how to read it.

You use phrases like "obviously you have never studied the bible" and you say things like this. Now I'm not going to go on holy-roller mode here, because I still don't consider myself a firm Christian. In the last few years, I've been spending a fair amount of time in Orthodox Christian churches and I've had a small turn of studying the Bible myself. Take a random teenager from the US, Luxembourg, Indonesia, or Togo and give them a copy of the Bible in their respective language and they might be able to grasp the major concepts. But there is a whole trove of historical context required to understand a massive part of that text, buddy, and most teenagers *don't* have that. It would take a few months of historical study just to begin to comprehend the cultural context of Jesus's parables, and the imagery of Revelations for example has done a fair job of stumping a whole mess of people.

Now don't get me wrong, the old Catholic doctrine of "only a member of the church's heirarchy can explain the Bible" bit was a horrible thing for Christendom that helped maintain power over the masses in the hands of a few. But John Wesley's complete turnaround of "anybody can understand the Bible" was one of Protestantism's greatest failings, and has lead to a great deal of trouble in the world. I guess if you want to get picky, yes, anybody can interpret the Bible. Just not correctly; not in terms of dogma, because I'm not going to claim that there even *is* a correct way to "interpret" God, or any of God's rules, or even God's existance. But there are tons upon tons of things that you will doubtless miss going on the "I know as good as anybody what this means" train.

As far as their "stories lining up 100%," this isn't entirely true. There are passages of noteworth phenomena throughout the Bible that no other historic comentators left any statement about whatsoever (pillars of fire and smoke in the sky, a day lasting for much longer than it should during a battle, etc.) That doesn't mean the whole thing is wrong, I'm just sick of hearing people say it's 100% true. If it were, where'd Cain's wife come from and why aren't we all hideously inbred? There's lots of faults, and it's gone through a lot of interpretations, to the point where some societies and cultures have phrases denoting rather different concepts. Remember when Jesus tells the Apostles to go out, and if a town refuses to hear his word, to shake off the dust from their sandles "as a sign against" them? Yeah. Not everybody includes that last little part, which is decidedly IN the King James version (about which I used to be able to rant at length with regards to the inadequacies of the "King James Only" crowd), and considering the "sign against them" thing is categorically inconsistent with Jesus (who spoke against ONLY the Pharisees and religious hypocrites, and supported all others he encountered) which do you think is the RIGHT interpretation?

I'll believe in anything if you'll just believe in anything

Oct 04, 2007 13:00 # 45003

MelMel *** rants...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

?% | 1

I was irritated before and now i'm pissed off.

Yes. I am young. No i have not given birth but i have single handedly held together a family for over 10 years. I have singlehandedly prevented three separate people (excluding myself) from committing suicide. I regularly co-ordinate upwards of 100 people at any given time and am personally responsible for the health and saftey in highly dangerous situations. I have proven my myself to this community time and time again yet every time i issue a strong viewpoint i am dismissed as an idiot teenager. Do not take me lightly.

The one friend of mine who was beaten as a child as a form of punishment was only ever hit lightly and never had any lasting physical effects... However she was incredibly shy through her early years then at the age of 13 began to heavily depressed and obsessed with the idea of being inadequate and tried to physicalise this through the use of cutting and other self destructive behaviour. When she was of age (18) she went completely off the rails, only ever dated guys who were violent and incredibly controlling and was ultimately hospitalised after her boyfriend of the time hit her.

Pardon me for having a strong opinion.

I didnt want to make this personal so i stuck to a general point.

How dare you tell me i have not lived this so i cannot comment. You have not raised a child how dare you say anything.

Perhaps...Just perhaps... That having been a chi;d entitles you to an opinion. I'm just throwing it out there as a suggestion.

I dont expect anyone here to have remembered anything i've written in the past about any of my experiences... But know this: The most beautiful, tragic, and depressing moments of my life have not been shared here. You know perhaps 30% of my story if you've read all i've written. And still you assume to judge me by the year i was born.

At what point did i say i have all the answers? I dont. All i know is that children hear everything. In the words of sondheim

"careful the things you say children will listen
careful the things you do
children will see and learn"

the memories i have of my childhood are vivid and i have memories of my parents that have formed the person i am today. There are comments i overheard, things i saw that i still think about today.

And mel, you say that people like you, bright and so forth, are those who will rule countries, save children and so forth. Well, i honestly hope that this new generation of yours is not going to be like this generation of politicians, doctors and so on.

Every generation gets a chance. Get over it. You win some you lose some. Each generation has it's flaws. While we are more progressive we have a long long way to go. We will screw up. However we will continue to improve. Such is life.

Just so you can relate being australian: Think about what the british have done to the aborigines. The trend was to take the kids away from their parents in order to have them marry british people to destroy completely the darker race.

This was after they tried to kill them all, wiping out the vast majority of tribes. Sickening. It was also to raise the children to be subservient.

When i was younger (and hey i am close to 25 only!!), I strongly believed that the world could be change and bla bla bla. Unfortunately i have already realized that this is just a bunch of crap. World will not change, because there aren't enough people interested in changing it.

The world will not change because everyone is pulling it into a different direction. I never claimed to be changing the world. I cant fix it. It's beyond me. However i am damn sure that i have a right to care and right to express an opinion.

I will not be patronised yet again by this community. I love some of you dearly, but it is this very aspect that keeps me hovering in the sidelines without responding to so many issues i am passionate or knowledgeable about.

Take me or leave me nao. You dont get to use the "you're too young" card ever again.

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

Oct 04, 2007 13:59 # 45005

Salvial_Ten *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Can reason fix everything/anything

60% | 2

Take me or leave me nao. You dont get to use the "you're too young" card ever again.

I'm definitely on the take you side, frankly because we're in the same age bracket, and I've always enjoyed your company on the site.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with your overall argument, Mel. Getting into the intricacies of child rearing isn't something I'm too willing to get into, as I really don't intend on raising any young ones of my own.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 01, 2007 06:37 # 44974

Salvial_Ten *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

92% | 5

I've done a lot of thinking on the subject, so much so that I actually neglected to read the argument that spun forth in the replies to it.

At first, I thought the answer was yes, that reason can fix everything. But then it occurred to me that because of their very nature reason cannot fix emotion. Sure, a logical explanation of why a relationship ends, or people dying, or of what made a joke funny is all fine and well, but it doesn't honestly make you stop hurting, or stop finding the joke funny.

Emotions are fleeting, impulsive things that come and go as they want to. You can't write a seventeen line long algorithm on how to make your girlfriend laugh with 100% accuracy (though there is always the chance that she'd laugh at you for trying if that counts for anything) nor can you talk yourself into feeling affection for someone. Knowing exactly how one of your best friends died in the collision their vehicle was in doesn't make you miss them any less, nor does it make the grief end every time you think of something you want to tell them.

Logic can however give you some comfort when you are sad, as can a very soft stuffed animal, or a nice long nap. Reason can also help you talk your way out of a pickle and it certainly helps you in your job, education, and in conversations like this one.

So there, that's my opinion on the topic. I'm sorry for not really reading the whole thread but in all honesty, I really did get too distracted by the subject itself the fifteen times I went to write a response.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Oct 02, 2007 20:13 # 44984

yoshi314 * replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

68% | 4

As long as any religion interferes with it - no.

Knowledge is a big asset. It can be used in various ways, so it requires some responsibility. It's best to make good use of the knowledge you have, and gain more knowledge.

It's not good to have as much knowledge as possible. Knowledge is a tool. You don't need to know unnecessary things.

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

Feb 27, 2008 01:22 # 45461

harold_maude *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

?% | 1

Well, if you think about how hard it is to get anyone to agree exactly the same about what should be done, by the time everyone gets on the same page, it's usually a bigger problem by then.
The question about being at least able to save themselves from self distruction is a bit easier, that depends on how willing someone actually is to change what needs to be changed. Just because you know something your doing is self destructive doesn't always mean that it will make you stop doing what your doing.
I think in order for the realization of the truth to become the realization of how we choose to live our lives, humans seem to need to be put into a place that there is no other choice, and I think that has to do with that place can be alot like a life preserver that you give someone who is drowning, besides giving a person enough of real motivation to move their ass and just do it, excuse the bluntness of that, but that seems to be what it comes down to.
I do believe that knowing the truth is always beneficial because even if knowing the truth brings the blow up of something familiar or comfortable, it means that the possiblity of something better or more life giving is given more room to at least have a change to become a real life director.

Great question. It's good to see that your still here.
Been through alot and finally got back on the net.

Mar 10, 2008 22:02 # 45528

Turings_child *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

?% | 2

Hi, newbie here.

I read through this topic and all it's ups and downs and it does tend to answer the question but not as intended.

The question is whose reason and whose truths should be used? To a member of a fanatical sect (Any religion, this is not judgemental, just an example.) his or her biased view is perfectly reasonable. To a parent seeing a decline in morals and behaviour physical punishment is reasonable, to a social worker it may abhorrent. The boyfreind/girlfreind argument is reasonable to the person concerned but not to the partner.

So no, reason cannot fix everything because each person's reasoning leads to different conclusions and actions. Reason is also tempered and distorted by emotion. World wars 1 and 2 were the single most disgusting events in history yet both sides claimed God and reason were on their side and both believed implicitly that this was so.

The only truth/reason which could be used to solve the worlds issues would be one unsullied by emotion and in which basic truths were universally accepted and used as stepping stones to larger ones. Sadly we don't even agree on the basics, we are still partially territorial and tribal and mostly we will defend our beliefs at the cost of reason. All this would need to be overcome in order to progress.

I thinks therefore I is

Apr 09, 2008 11:00 # 45686

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

So no, reason cannot fix everything because each person's reasoning leads to different conclusions and actions. Reason is also tempered and distorted by emotion. World wars 1 and 2 were the single most disgusting events in history yet both sides claimed God and reason were on their side and both believed implicitly that this was so.

I have to disagree. Reasoning is technically the same for everyone. What changes are the perspectives of those who make the reasoning. I would argue that the very definition of reasoning means it can't be something which varies from person to person. The part that varies is emotion and initial base of information one has to use to begin to reason for something.

Reasoning, for me, is 'All bearded people are bad people. Joe has a beard, therefore joe is a bad person." From a logical standpoint, if you agree that all bearded people are bad people and that Joe has a beard, you *must* inevitably conclude that joe is a bad person. However, the basis in which all bearded people are bad people might be based on emotion (hatred in this case) which another might completely disagree with. The flaw in the logic would therefore come from the disputability that all bearded people are bad people, though the reasoning is sound.

It's true that both sides thought God was on their side in World Wars 1 and 2, though the reasoning was "God wants us to win. God is omnipotent, therefore we will win." Again, the logic is sound. The flaw is the premise "God wants us to win." I won't go into how many errors have been made on this single premise alone. :)

If the world should blow itself up,the last audible voice would be an expert saying it can't be done

Apr 12, 2008 00:05 # 45707

harold_maude *** replies...

Re: Can reason fix everything?

I agree with the sterotyping that goes with social reasoning.
So let's just strip the surface away and see what reasoning still exists, if any at all.

When a person is convinced that what they are doing or not doing is being of sound mind and good reasoning it seems that something will come along to test things, or blow them up.
A person then has to look at everything and decide what is what, so to speak.
A good example is that when someone is raised in a very tradional religious setting, their reason tends to be based more on what the preachers, pastors and priests tell them.
When it gets blown up and their world goes along with that, everything they have believed comes under the spot light to be examined.

What happens then is that the reasons that a person does what they do sort of falls apart.
They have to find out what they believe, what is real, and what reason exists.
Another thing to think about is culture here. What is good reasoning in one culture is not nessiarily good reasoning in another.
It may seem very reasonable to shoot someone who doesn't believe like you do, if that's what the culture you live in teaches.
There are cultures in the world who's citizens believe this very thing.
But to another culture, the idea of shooting someone who believes differently is a horrendous act against humanity.

I think it comes down to being able to communicate ideas well enough for reason based on truth to be heard. In that place reason has a chance to change things and then maybe fix things at least some of the things that are going on in the world that are distroying humanity.


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