Reading Love and Lifesense

May 21, 2007 15:45 # 44570

ginsterbusch *** smiles...

Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

60% | 2

Over at Molly's there's been kind of a discussion going on about whether its good to be in a Techie/Non-Techie relation or not. The following text is what I've been submitted as a comment (and some additions, as I'd like to say a bit more to this topic ;):

well .. I'm in a non-techie/tech-relationship, and although the first year or so was quite strenous when coming to my "geek factor" part, but by now she not only has accepted I'm into computers but also supports me if there are some hard parts during a project, where you have to work on it to get it done before a specific dead-line and similar stuff.

By now, I very much enjoy to get the weekend off of computing and all the other related stuff. Some years ago I wouldnt have believed that you could lead a well-working relation-ship with someone who isnt involved into all this computer business stuff like me, but by now it feels so natural to me I'd never want to miss this feeling ;)

So, yes - of course a Techie/Non-Techie relationship may work out well. Its just up to you and your partner to turn it into a stable, properly working one. So if you're an egoistic bitch, this wont work out. But if you try hard, sometimes hold back althoug you think you've been misjugdged, your partner will understand you finally.

Of course its sometimes sad you cant transport that feeling about techie/webby stuff you're excited about 1:1, but thats what friends are for. Dont torture your beloved one with that techie yatter she dont want to hear or at least is all a bit too much it - you soon get down from the trip, enjoy and relax, and the nudging, bugging tense will leave. :D

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on May 21, 2007.

Jun 04, 2007 11:31 # 44651

ginsterbusch *** rants...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

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Aha. so this is kind of boring, eh? NO WONDER NAO looks so deceased these days!

Once again: Is it good or bad to be together with a techie / non-techie significant other?

Thanks in advance for (not) listening to me,
cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 04, 2007.

Jun 07, 2007 13:35 # 44667

Deimos ** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

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Hm. Im not so sure.

When I went to university for the first time last year, I went along in freshers week and joined the odd society or two. I joined the Tabletop gaming/RPG club and console gaming clubs, and when I got there for the first meeting, i took one look around the room, and turned around immediately and left. There wasnt one woman who wasnt obviously a complete motherfucking headcase (well, thats not strictly true, i should say that the only two that werent headcases were attached, and hence, were invisible to me).

Even before that, during the summer, I kinda got involved with another young lady (who on reflection i really shouldnt have done, for a multitude of reasons) who pissed me off with her habit of being as impressionable as wet clay. Picking up and emulating my mannerisms, interests and style of speech, even including things she didnt know about. Pissed me off no end.

Right now im again being pissed off by a young woman, whom i havent seen for two weeks. She sees nothing wrong with this. Yeah, shes got exams and needs to study, but shes spent half this time just sitting around on her arse watching tv. Then there was when she came for a night out a literal stones throw from my house, and she didnt invite me out to see her for like five minutes. I shit you not, I could yell from my window and be heard at this venue. And when i finally do manage to collar her on the phone, and say that I want to see her more often, she starts getting obscenely defensive about her lifestyle choices. It was only by thinly veiled coercetion that shes coming round tommorow to talk properly. I think I have a pretty good idea of whats going to happen, as im sure most people will be aware, knowing me.

H:"<Insert defensiveness about her time>"
D:"Well, why are you going out with me then? Get the fuck outta here, you're wasting my valuable time."

So when it comes to techy/non techy relationships, i guess i dont really have an opinion one way or the other. Im still looking for someone who's not completely fucked in the head.

Sir Deimos, Beater of Ass.

Jun 08, 2007 09:09 # 44674

ginsterbusch *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

complete motherfucking headcase

What do you mean with "complete .. headcase"? I think I get a bit of grasp of what you mean, but I dont understand that word completely.

Are you a techie trying to get involved with non-techies?

So maybe you're doing that the wrong way, ie. search in the wrong places. But I wont talk about this now as I'm not really certain what's your exact position in this .. ;)

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

Jun 08, 2007 11:32 # 44675

Deimos ** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

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I guess I am a techy. Im doing mechanical engineering at university, anyway. And these women are largely doing other stuff, art or psychology or whatever. This is mainly because women on the whole dont largely go for science, or my particularly blunt worldview, but tend to like to wrap things up in pink-tinted obfuscation.

Vicky, the one who imprinted on me, was like this to the hilt. Very hippy child, with some ideas that patently didnt work. Helen, who I broke up with yesterday, only has the fault that shes seriously too busy for her own good.

I've yet to meet a geek girl I like. This is due to experience of the girls on my engineering course. Out of one hundred and eighty students, three of them are female. Ones very quiet and shy. Ones a complete slag who will go with just about anyone. And the other is a bit of a mystery but still gives off that alluring atmosphere of sophisticated intelligent cocktease. And, of course, my experience with the societies that have already been mentioned.

Im not after much, just someone whos fun to be around, who i can hold a conversation with, and generally not be pissed off by them. Of course, though, the good ones are taken.

Sir Deimos, Beater of Ass.

Jun 08, 2007 16:30 # 44676

ginsterbusch *** agrees...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

This is mainly because women on the whole dont largely go for science, or my particularly blunt worldview, but tend to like to wrap things up in pink-tinted obfuscation.

Nice prejudice. Got some more?

Im not after much, just someone whos fun to be around, who i can hold a conversation with, and generally not be pissed off by them. Of course, though, the good ones are taken.

Oh yes. They are. Right attitude. Instead of hanging around at the university, you could just lay down in a covin, close the lid and let the undertakers do their job ;)

Of course nobody will ever want to be with you. And you gonna die lonely, as a crippled, bony, hateful man. Must be fun ;->

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

Jun 08, 2007 16:52 # 44677

Deimos ** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

?% | 1

Nice prejudice. Got some more?

Its not prejudice. Or should it be compulsory to add "In my experience" after everything we write now? My bitterness and cynicism is born of long years of being fucked over by various people. Ive found that it works, for me, so thats what I stick to. My apologies for appearing prejudiced.

Of course nobody will ever want to be with you. And you gonna die lonely, as a crippled, bony, hateful man. Must be fun ;->

Heh. Its not that bad. As is referenced elsewhere, I dont really have a problem with going home with people after a night out, but i do have a problem with finding relatively sane people to have a relationship with. Techy or not, it doesnt really matter, IN MY EXPERIENCE im not that great with relationships. Why do you think I have a website called Onemandisaster? :P

Sir Deimos, Beater of Ass.

Jun 08, 2007 20:59 # 44680

andromacha *** takes out her flame thrower...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

47% | 2

Nice prejudice. Got some more?
Its not prejudice. Or should it be compulsory to add "In my experience" after everything we write now? My bitterness and cynicism is born of long years of being fucked over by various people. Ive found that it works, for me, so thats what I stick to. My apologies for appearing prejudiced.

Yes, that is the biggest prejudice some men have towards women. Well, those who believe such crap are just idiots who cannot see beyond the tip of their nose!

Do you think that just because you study engineering you're a smart geek? Not at all my dear, not at all. If you attract people who are like that, this doesn't mean that all the females are that way. Probably that is the only kind of girl you can get, because the others are busy with people who are more intelligent than you and less prejudiced.

Just because girls are much better in arts and literature, this doesn't mean that we are complete idiots! On my part I have to say that I do study foreign languages, and that I took some engineering courses. I took exams, and I passed them well, but I decided to change faculty because of people like you! Yes, like you! Idiots who are prejudiced towards women. There are these males who believe that they are the smartest things God has ever created, and that they can be the only ones who can use a computer excellently, that women don't understand anything about maths, physics, geometry or whatnot... Those are the kind of guys that make me sick to my stomach and make me want to throw up.

Deimos, I am really disappointed at you. I really thought that you were different than this, honestly. I think that before judging other people, or rather girls, you should look at yourself. A girl with some common sense would not date a guy like you, not even if you pay her. I think you should change your attitude a great deal before you can get a girl who can actually have some respect for you.

For now, I am nauseated. I think you should reconsider your position, because what you stated about girls is definitely offensive, and not true at all.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Jun 09, 2007 08:29 # 44682

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

65% | 2

Deimos, I imagine what you were trying to say was that your typical female isn't interested in math and science. Statistically, this is something that cannot be denied. However, I wouldn't go to suggest that this is merely due to the fact that one has a vagina and the other has a penis.

Many differences placed between men and women are fake. Differences were added because it helps to attract a mate to be more 'feminine' or 'masculine' than the other. Now times are now, and to be female means you have to be a nurse, play with dolls, and dress in pink. And tom-boys are notorious for not liking to do such things. It isn't because they are dysfunctional, but because girls and boys are very similar mentally at a young age. I would go far as to say if you gave a little boy only dolls and pink dresses to play with, they'd grow to like it like a girl would.

Though most people probably scoff to read that, because nobody likes to hear of a person playing the 'role' of the other counterpart. We're all brainwashed in a way that men are supposed to act one way and women another. I didn't even make this realization until I reached Italy. In America, while there is this distinction, it isn't as strong. At a certain point, when you are an adult, you are just as capable professionally as another adult. Sex is not an issue.

Italy, in this respect, seems more behind on this. Male and female are big issues, and I suppose it doesn't help that every physical object according to the italian language must be masculine or feminine. Prejudice is still apparent here in Italy, because as far as that is concerned, it is no different than america was about 20 years ago. 20 years ago in America, women had to get second jobs as a nurse or secretary. If they weren't, they were housewives.

So in short, what you say isn't true, Deimos. Perhaps you are much like the millions of others who have grown up with a reconceived notion of what women are and what they are capable of. If you ever have a daughter and you never teach her the sciences because she's female, can you ever really expect her to become a scientist or an engineer? That's a question I leave to you to answer.

If the world should blow itself up,the last audible voice would be an expert saying it can't be done

Jun 09, 2007 08:48 # 44684

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

Many differences placed between men and women are fake.

I agree with you on this, however, IMHO it's just as wrong to assume that there are no differences at all. (Not that I'm implying you said that.) Mostly unbiased scientists have proven on more than one occasion that the female body & brain work differently than the male in many aspects. It's only the radical feminists and some do-gooders who deny that there are any differences at all. As if differences were bad (which they're not!).
The problem starts when somebody thinks the differences make them better than the others, but I like to believe that most of those partaking in this discussion are above such misconceptions.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Jun 09, 2007 21:03 # 44689

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

What I was upset about wasn't the fact that he stated that you see less females in engineering courses. This is quite a fact, also because females are discriminated in that sense. After a while you've been hearing that you're dumb because you're a girl and you are not capable of studying engineering because of that... well you must admit you aren't exactly encouraged to keep studying that stuff, but you feel like studying something else, in which there are no discriminations.

What disturbed me is the fact that Deimos seems to be one of those mysogins who believe that all women act all girly girl, study arts and literature... and are inferior to men. This crap is real bullshit, and makes me wanna scream.

Several of my high school girl friends studied engineering, and prevailed over very talented males. I decided to switch faculty, but it was only because I couldn't put up with the frustration of always been looked down to.

I remember quite clearly one time when I was studying engineering. I and two friends of mine (a girl and a guy) had a problem with something the professor taught. It was about maths analysis... in particular it was either Laplace transform or Fourier's. He clearly skipped something, and got a result out of nowhere, and we couldn't figure out what was wrong, because he used a way to solve it that wasn't described in the book. So the three of us went to the colloquium with the professor. First one to get in (since he was receiving single student by single student) was my girl friend. She was bashed to death, because she was "too ignorant and not intelligent to study engineering". Then it was my turn. I got in, and I remember that f***ing jerk saying "I think it's best if you change faculty... women aren't good for studying engineering, physics or scientific subjects" (on a side note: my mom got a degree in chemistry with 110/110 magna cum laude... but maybe chemistry is a humanistic field?!). Then it was my guy friend turn. He got in, and the jerk apologized for messing up during class, and he explained in the detail what was the missing part, and how to procede. Now, how do you think I felt after this? We are girls, and so we don't deserve to study engineering? Is that what guys think?!

Not all girls are all jolly girly girl! I am not one of those, and will never be. Most of my friends aren't either, and I don't even think I found so many "girly girl" girls in my faculty... foreign languages is part of the humanistic group though, isn't it?!

Probably if males didn't keep females at a distance, you guys would be able to see more girls sitting next to you in your engineering courses. But otherwise... hell why should we keep studying something just for being discriminated? Because I can assure you that girls aren't discriminated only during their studies, but even later on. A female engineer is not considered the same as a male engineer, no matter if her grades during school were higher than his. And this sucks! I even have the proofs of what I am saying. The same girl friend of mine graduated not very long ago. She got out with 110/110, so perfect score, and even quite high for getting out of electronics engineering. Well she applied for a job: they were looking for an electronics engineer who had graduated on time and stuff like that. Can you believe it? She didn't get the job, but a guy did. A guy we both knew and who got out with 102/110. What do you think this means?!

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

This post was edited by andromacha on Jun 09, 2007.

Jun 11, 2007 10:03 # 44694

ginsterbusch *** smiles...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

?% | 1

On a sidenote: I didnt want to reply to this totally biased, prejudiced post of Deimos, because it surely would have ended in a mere hatred, scorched earth-type rant.

In German: "volle Breitseite inklusive Napalm und rostigen Nägeln - ich krieg sooo nen Hals, wenn ich solch einen macho-mäßigen, diskriminierenden scheißdreck lesen muss!"

Good to see others do think the same way but wouldnt allow themselves such 'politeness', Andromecha ;)

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 11, 2007.

Mar 08, 2009 17:01 # 46299

zen *** replies...

Scorched-Earth

scorched earth-type rant.

Not to be confused with slash and burn

...which are my argument techniques....

Just proves this topic is still relevant

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

This post was edited by zen on Mar 08, 2009.

Jun 09, 2007 08:40 # 44683

null throws in his two cents...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

Yes, that is the biggest prejudice some men have towards women.

I'm all for equality, but in this case I have to support Deimos's statement. And it's not a prejudice but a simple observation.
In my electronics engineering class there was one woman. In the class below there were two. Mechanics - zero. Tech diploma - started with two, one dropped out.
Female programmers: I know, hmm, I think two.
Female car mechanics: zero.
Number of female participants at the last IT trade show I attended: one, and she worked in communications, not in the IT field.
Hairdressers: maybe one male for 1,000,000 females.

Switzerland does a lot for equal chances. Everybody - male or female - can choose their own profession and courses. It would be easy for a women to get a tech education.
If she wanted to.

And that's got nothing to do with being stupid or smart but with personal preferences. Militant women's libbers may be pissed off by these observations as much as they want, unless they find a way to interest more women in tech stuff it's always gonna be this way. And for one they can't blame it on us men. (Well they blame it on men anyway, because, you know, us men are to blame for everything. But that's not the point.)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Jun 09, 2007.

Jun 11, 2007 10:12 # 44696

ginsterbusch *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

Well .. its also about how jobs in the technology, but esp. in the IT field are presented to females.

Its not that good.
Not even average, but worse.

Eg. my beloved one knows how to use computers, but was driven away (and nearly insane) by awfully presented, non-individualistic, self-centered schooling of IT and engineering.

By now, she wants to become an (landscape) architect, is in search of a second-year apprenticeship in carpenting / cabinetmaking and not of all afraid of technology. Just the over-nerdy, prejudiced asshole type-of-IT is NOT her choice. And I'm happy with that ;-P

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 11, 2007.

Jun 12, 2007 07:29 # 44706

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

By now, she wants to become an (landscape) architect

Well there you go! She doesn't strike me as the type of wanting to represent everything in pink shades :P Architecture is by many wrongly considered part of the humanistic field, but surprise... it's not! Here it is even in the same faculty of engineering, even though they merely share the place, because I don't think there are common professors.

To be perfectly honest, when I was studying engineering, aside from loving maths, geometry and electronics (I loved creating circuits and do computations about them), I didn't dislike programming. At least the few things they taught me in C: And I did manage to create some little fun programs (more advanced than "hello world" ;)). I just couldn't stand the pressure of having 1 month and a half of course, and only one week before the exam. In the first year I was supposed to take 13 exams, and I took about half of them.

I remember being awake very late at night with big cups of coffee to study... I was in the kitchen at the table, and my mom was there ironing. That's the only thing I want to remember with affection about engineering. Nothing else. Getting in that faculty now gives me the creeps. To think about how women are abused and so forth!

Heck, guys are known to be more "talented" towards that kind of things. But it's not that we, girls, consider the males who study foreign languages as gay! There aren't several of them, but they are not discriminated whatsoever. If anything, girls really try to help them out if they need help. And not out of physical interest. The typical foreign language male student is either engaged or not exactly... the right age. I mean, out of those I know, one of them is engaged (they've been together for ages and they share the same apartment), and another one is 32. Now, with all the due respect to those who passed the 30s, I think that girls who are in their early 20s rarely want to go with those who are way older than they are. But of course, it depends on the girl. At any rate, that's why I said that we help them but not out of interest.

In fact, at foreign languages, we are even quite happy to see some guys sitting among us. We realize that it is an exception of course, but we tend to help them. On the contrary, what I noticed at engineering was the huge competition. Heck, if I need notes because I missed a class, even an unknown person will allow me to photocopy his/hers. But at engineering... NO. If you missed a class, well you're screwed. Either you rely on close friends or you're totally f***ed. I mean, do you think this is the right behavior?! It seems that other people are happy to see you fail vs them prevail. It just makes me sick to my stomach. And you cannot imagine how many times I have heard guys teasing girls at that darn engineering faculty.

Really, before switching major, I was really afraid that university would have been just the same shit of high school, where everybody teases the others, where you're shun by the group and where people tend to be evil towards you. I am so glad that I switched major!! I realized that it is not like this. University can be friendly! People aren't out there to f**k you over, but they are kind and helpful. I am just so glad I took myself out of that engineering shit!!

I think that the only way for girls to be encouraged to study what they like (including computer science and stuff) is to build up a better system. I mean, engineering should become girl friendly. Guys don't reason better or program better because they have a penis. They do because they receive the education that girls aren't allowed to have. Why? Not out of our choice, but out of discrimination.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Jun 12, 2007 09:47 # 44709

ginsterbusch *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

47% | 2

They do because they receive the education that girls aren't allowed to have. Why? Not out of our choice, but out of discrimination.

The rivalry and other fucked up shit is one of the reason why I stopped studying commercial information technology. I've always been encouraging girls to get interested within the IT field and always tried to help them if asked, although I'm a smart ass and thus, talk too much :D

Probably I overdo it sometimes - no matter what gender - but I always try to ask folks if I'm wearing them out with my bubble, so the damage stays mostly on the low side :)

Basically I do not understand, whats so funny about failing. Probably those guys are not grown-ups yet, but still are the nerdy idiotic children, those folks you call in German "Kellerkinder". And when they finally grow up - either when trying to get a real job or by reaching the age of 30 - they whine around why there arent any females in the IT field who do understand their interests and fascination.

Like this poor guy named Deimos.

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 12, 2007.

Jun 13, 2007 00:55 # 44717

Deimos ** is getting sarcastic...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

60% | 2

I'm not whining about people not sharing my interests. I have plenty of people who do. I'm annoyed that the people i have tried to develop a relationship with generally arent mature enough to carry through the first few weeks/months to something more.

In addition, partly because im drunk, mainly because im feeling vengeful at being made out to be something im not, I'm going to take each post on this thread apart because im either going to acquit myself or go out in a blaze so vengeful it'll fucking scar your collective retinas. As I have said before, you stick words in my mouth and ill stick my vengeful fist in yours.

Yes, that is the biggest prejudice some men have towards women. Well, those who believe such crap are just idiots who cannot see beyond the tip of their nose!

Do you think that just because you study engineering you're a smart geek? Not at all my dear, not at all. If you attract people who are like that, this doesn't mean that all the females are that way. Probably that is the only kind of girl you can get, because the others are busy with people who are more intelligent than you and less prejudiced.

Just because girls are much better in arts and literature, this doesn't mean that we are complete idiots! On my part I have to say that I do study foreign languages, and that I took some engineering courses. I took exams, and I passed them well, but I decided to change faculty because of people like you! Yes, like you! Idiots who are prejudiced towards women. There are these males who believe that they are the smartest things God has ever created, and that they can be the only ones who can use a computer excellently, that women don't understand anything about maths, physics, geometry or whatnot... Those are the kind of guys that make me sick to my stomach and make me want to throw up.

Deimos, I am really disappointed at you. I really thought that you were different than this, honestly. I think that before judging other people, or rather girls, you should look at yourself. A girl with some common sense would not date a guy like you, not even if you pay her. I think you should change your attitude a great deal before you can get a girl who can actually have some respect for you.

For now, I am nauseated. I think you should reconsider your position, because what you stated about girls is definitely offensive, and not true at all.

AS far as i'm aware there is nowhere in my posts where I've said categorically that women are incapable of the same professions, or skills, as men. This i will continue to refer back to as STFU Point One.

To continue STFUP1 Ill say that theres plenty of evidence on NAO itself regarding my attitude to women and their aptitude, giving some discussion of possible paths for Rosy to the tune of becoming a machinist: http://www.netalive.org/topics/42195?find=42211#42211

Hook, line, sinker, rod and copy of Angling Times. I'm feeling generous, so I'll ignore the personal attack, and instead go on to say that I really dont understand the apparent whirlwhind I've whipped up by a few comments that to me dont state anything categorically except that I havent found anyone thats meshed with me and hasnt fucked me over.

All this bull about me apparently stating I dont consider women to be capable of the same subjects, or that im the smartest thin god ever created... WHAT. THE. FUCK? Ive said I dont believe in god, unless hes a sadist, and ive never said that women arent capable. Moving on to the next post ( since all these posts overlap saving my time with a userbase Im rapidly losing respect for, in turn, for being made the subject of a witchhunt..) we have HAWKEYE's post:

Deimos, I imagine what you were trying to say was that your typical female isn't interested in math and science. Statistically, this is something that cannot be denied. However, I wouldn't go to suggest that this is merely due to the fact that one has a vagina and the other has a penis.

Many differences placed between men and women are fake. Differences were added because it helps to attract a mate to be more 'feminine' or 'masculine' than the other. Now times are now, and to be female means you have to be a nurse, play with dolls, and dress in pink. And tom-boys are notorious for not liking to do such things. It isn't because they are dysfunctional, but because girls and boys are very similar mentally at a young age. I would go far as to say if you gave a little boy only dolls and pink dresses to play with, they'd grow to like it like a girl would.

Though most people probably scoff to read that, because nobody likes to hear of a person playing the 'role' of the other counterpart. We're all brainwashed in a way that men are supposed to act one way and women another. I didn't even make this realization until I reached Italy. In America, while there is this distinction, it isn't as strong. At a certain point, when you are an adult, you are just as capable professionally as another adult. Sex is not an issue.

Italy, in this respect, seems more behind on this. Male and female are big issues, and I suppose it doesn't help that every physical object according to the italian language must be masculine or feminine. Prejudice is still apparent here in Italy, because as far as that is concerned, it is no different than america was about 20 years ago. 20 years ago in America, women had to get second jobs as a nurse or secretary. If they weren't, they were housewives.

So in short, what you say isn't true, Deimos. Perhaps you are much like the millions of others who have grown up with a reconceived notion of what women are and what they are capable of. If you ever have a daughter and you never teach her the sciences because she's female, can you ever really expect her to become a scientist or an engineer? That's a question I leave to you to answer.

Relevant parts here ( by which I mean parts im going to steamroller) are paragraphs 1, 2 and 5.

Para 1: First sentence basically correct. Your average female picked up off the street wont readily launch into a discourse on science. Third sentence I never made any allusion to. Second sentence is irrelevant.

Para 2: Again , I dont believe in this crap.Nature and nurture in equal parts. Hell, to my cost in some circles, im going to say that my parents gave me a load of fucking barbie dolls to play with cos at that point in my childhood we were quite poor.

Para 5: Its always been my intention to raise properly educated kids. Regardless of sex, theyre going to know how to do the ironing, fix a car, wash clothes, solder, cook dinner, wire a plug and all the rest of it. Theres no point being specialised since that leaves gaping holes in your armoury of knowledge. My kids will always have the personal choice of pursuing any interest they have and I intend to support them fully, just as my parents have in my many varied changes of course.Again, I'll refer to STFUP1: No where did I say that women are incapable of performing the same tasks as men.

I'm all for equality, but in this case I have to support Deimos's statement. And it's not a prejudice but a simple observation.
In my electronics engineering class there was one woman. In the class below there were two. Mechanics - zero. Tech diploma - started with two, one dropped out.
Female programmers: I know, hmm, I think two.
Female car mechanics: zero.
Number of female participants at the last IT trade show I attended: one, and she worked in communications, not in the IT field.
Hairdressers: maybe one male for 1,000,000 females.

Switzerland does a lot for equal chances. Everybody - male or female - can choose their own profession and courses. It would be easy for a women to get a tech education.
If she wanted to.

And that's got nothing to do with being stupid or smart but with personal preferences. Militant women's libbers may be pissed off by these observations as much as they want, unless they find a way to interest more women in tech stuff it's always gonna be this way. And for one they can't blame it on us men. (Well they blame it on men anyway, because, you know, us men are to blame for everything. But that's not the point.)

I love Null. Hes lovely.

All im going to say at this point is that to add to this, the women I counted in my initial posts as on my course at brookes are those *left* after the first year. We originally started with six. Three left. One left after getting the highest marks of the year for some as yet unknown reason. Another left in the first month or so because she wasnt happy being away from home. The other one just stopped coming to lectures and no one knew what happened to her.

I went, again, as has been referenced in my previous posts, to an all girls school for part of my sixth form. This school held the correct view that anyone could accomplish anything if they were driven hard enough. And yet if you asked any one of the girls, you probably on the whole wouldnt get engineering as an answer. Youd get loads of doctors, but maybe only two or three engineers, and the majority of the rest going into psychology/social sciences/english. I personally only know of one girl with an intent to do civil engineering. In fear of this becoming another bit of "evidence" of supposed bias, im going to say here that one of my best friends in oxford is Karri. Shes doing physics at *THE* oxford instead of oxford brookes. Shes doing stuff in her first year thats on the final exam after three years at other universities. Shes hard core, and I have no hope of catching up to her.

Moving on...

What I was upset about wasn't the fact that he stated that you see less females in engineering courses. This is quite a fact, also because females are discriminated in that sense. After a while you've been hearing that you're dumb because you're a girl and you are not capable of studying engineering because of that... well you must admit you aren't exactly encouraged to keep studying that stuff, but you feel like studying something else, in which there are no discriminations.

What disturbed me is the fact that Deimos seems to be one of those mysogins who believe that all women act all girly girl, study arts and literature... and are inferior to men. This crap is real bullshit, and makes me wanna scream.

Several of my high school girl friends studied engineering, and prevailed over very talented males. I decided to switch faculty, but it was only because I couldn't put up with the frustration of always been looked down to.

I remember quite clearly one time when I was studying engineering. I and two friends of mine (a girl and a guy) had a problem with something the professor taught. It was about maths analysis... in particular it was either Laplace transform or Fourier's. He clearly skipped something, and got a result out of nowhere, and we couldn't figure out what was wrong, because he used a way to solve it that wasn't described in the book. So the three of us went to the colloquium with the professor. First one to get in (since he was receiving single student by single student) was my girl friend. She was bashed to death, because she was "too ignorant and not intelligent to study engineering". Then it was my turn. I got in, and I remember that f***ing jerk saying "I think it's best if you change faculty... women aren't good for studying engineering, physics or scientific subjects" (on a side note: my mom got a degree in chemistry with 110/110 magna cum laude... but maybe chemistry is a humanistic field?!). Then it was my guy friend turn. He got in, and the jerk apologized for messing up during class, and he explained in the detail what was the missing part, and how to procede. Now, how do you think I felt after this? We are girls, and so we don't deserve to study engineering? Is that what guys think?!

Not all girls are all jolly girly girl! I am not one of those, and will never be. Most of my friends aren't either, and I don't even think I found so many "girly girl" girls in my faculty... foreign languages is part of the humanistic group though, isn't it?!

Probably if males didn't keep females at a distance, you guys would be able to see more girls sitting next to you in your engineering courses. But otherwise... hell why should we keep studying something just for being discriminated? Because I can assure you that girls aren't discriminated only during their studies, but even later on. A female engineer is not considered the same as a male engineer, no matter if her grades during school were higher than his. And this sucks! I even have the proofs of what I am saying. The same girl friend of mine graduated not very long ago. She got out with 110/110, so perfect score, and even quite high for getting out of electronics engineering. Well she applied for a job: they were looking for an electronics engineer who had graduated on time and stuff like that. Can you believe it? She didn't get the job, but a guy did. A guy we both knew and who got out with 102/110. What do you think this means?!

So here in fact is revealed the roots of your own prejudice. Oh, im sorry, should I say your own personal experience?

SHOCK HORROR DEIMOS OWNS IN AN IRONIC STATEMENT REFENCING BOTH THIS POST AND ONE OF HIS OWN, CAVING SAID ARGUMENTS IN A STROKE! SURELY NOT!

Fish, barrel, bang.

Again, STFUP1. You could have had that guys ass, made him lose his job. That is something I have no qualms with, at all. Although youve probably guessed that I am the very model of a modern vengeful bastard.

Frankly I couldnt give a shit about the majority of you guys who have chosen to read something into my posts, or more likely not bothered to read my posts at all.

My first post made no reference to misogyny, only to women being of incompatible interests to my own.

Second post, I make a thin reference to the women on my engineering course, making NO COMMENT WHATSOEVER ON THEIR APTITUDE FOR THE SUBJECT (FUCK THE LOT OF YOU) only on the character of them.

My third post was a bit of dark sarcasm, that apparently really should be taught in schools because you guys apparently dont understand this anymore. I even attempt a little humour at the end. In return im marked as a misogynist, someone who likes to keep women chained to the stove when as has been born out elsewhere I dont tolerate that shit for a minute.

Netalive, Far from the Maddening Crowds?

More like Netalive, Home of the Spanish Inquistion.

Sir Deimos, Beater of Ass.

Jun 14, 2007 09:03 # 44731

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

Probably if males didn't keep females at a distance, you guys would be able to see more girls sitting next to you in your engineering courses. But otherwise... hell why should we keep studying something just for being discriminated? Because I can assure you that girls aren't discriminated only during their studies, but even later on. A female engineer is not considered the same as a male engineer, no matter if her grades during school were higher than his. And this sucks! I even have the proofs of what I am saying. The same girl friend of mine graduated not very long ago. She got out with 110/110, so perfect score, and even quite high for getting out of electronics engineering. Well she applied for a job: they were looking for an electronics engineer who had graduated on time and stuff like that. Can you believe it? She didn't get the job, but a guy did. A guy we both knew and who got out with 102/110. What do you think this means?!
So here in fact is revealed the roots of your own prejudice. Oh, im sorry, should I say your own personal experience?
SHOCK HORROR DEIMOS OWNS IN AN IRONIC STATEMENT REFENCING BOTH THIS POST AND ONE OF HIS OWN, CAVING SAID ARGUMENTS IN A STROKE! SURELY NOT!

Oh and... sorry, I really cannot grasp how I would be prejudiced here. This is mere fact, not prejudice. And the fact that there are several men who consider women as inferior to them is again another real fact unfortunately. No, I don't think you own at all by the way.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Jun 14, 2007 09:00 # 44730

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

but tend to like to wrap things up in pink-tinted obfuscation.

I think that women would have a problem with reading something like that. Now, if you're saying that you have never been a mysogin in your posts... please define better this concept. What do you mean exactly by pink-tinted obfuscation?!

I am a woman, and I think that women might read something not very pleasant out of that. Maybe you didn't mean anything bad out of it, but you gotta explain then. Maybe this is not what you meant, and you didn't have better words to express it. However, what you stated there is quite offensive.

For everybody's sake, I will post here the meaning of one of the incriminated words:

Obfuscation: confusion resulting from failure to understand

The fact that this obfuscation is "pink-tinted"... well it's even more offensive! I think that before bashing other posts to death like you did (and by the way the only result you accomplishing with me was to have me laugh out loud at your attempt of dismantling our post piece by piece) you should analyze the meaning of the words you write down. If you don't, well then other people might argue (like I am doing) that what you write is offensive (even though you may not have intended for it to be offensive).

You also stated you love null, because he was trying to put water over the fire you lit. Well, I am sure that his intentions were good, and that he might be right in saying that you didn't mean anything out of that. However, I don't know if null knew exactly the meaning of what you stated, or maybe he even disregarded that particular sentence. He is one of my closest friends, together with Orchid, and I would never hint that he doesn't know English or anything like that. However, since his mother tongue is German, he might really have disregarded that sentence of yours as not important.

On the contrary, I do give extreme importance to words, and even now I am putting a lot of effort in replying your post. I have been thinking twice about things to write, and I even checked on several dictionaries to verify that the word obfuscation had precisely that negative connotation that I attributed to it.

Sooo... I will not have a problem in apologizing if I made a mistake in judging your words. However, I would like the proofs of that. If you can explain exactly what you meant by it, I might take back some of my words. Your explanation though shall not be totally off the wall :P I want to be able to consider that "pink-tinted obfuscation" as something not negative and offensive, and with the only definition and connotation of the word, I definitely cannot. Therefore, I need your help.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Jun 14, 2007 11:24 # 44732

null rants...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

he was trying to put water over the fire you lit. Well, I am sure that his intentions were good, and that he might be right in saying that you didn't mean anything out of that. However, I don't know if null knew exactly the meaning of what you stated,

Oh, I believe I did understand what he wrote quite well. (I'm usually not one to boast, but you might want to check out the reading mark on my CAE grade sheet. My English is not so bad, and I vill not buy this record itis scratched.)

On a side note, and with all due respect yada yada yada, I'm not trying to put water over the fire that Deimos lit. You see, I think it was you and ginsterbusch who started the fire by bashing Deimos for something he didn't say, even after he had attempted to clarify his statement(s). Calling him an idiot, predicting him a lonely death (thanks to his prejudices) and adding lengthy rants about where and how exactly women are being suppressed and looked down upon by arrogant men, ... all based upon a slightly politically incorrect remark which had little to do with what you complained about and to which he had added "in my experience" afterwards... well, what can I say? I'd be pissed off too.

(My original plan was to keep my mouth shut and only intervene if the discussion gets ugly, but since my name has been mentioned...)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Jun 14, 2007.

Jun 14, 2007 20:40 # 44737

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

So... am I the only one to think that saying that women like to wrap things up in pink-tinted obfuscation is offensive? I didn't predict a lonely death for him by the way. I even said that I can take back some words of what I said, if he can explain me how what he stated is not offensive.

I did reread all his posts, and I still didn't really understand the clarification about "pink-tinted obfuscation" not being offensive. I am really sorry if I overreacted, but this is a very delicate thing for me, especially because of my own experience. I think I was justified in overreacting for feeling hurt from his words. And if those were not his intentions, well I am still waiting for him to provide an explanation. If he already did, and he clarified what he means with pink-tinted obfuscation, then please point me to that post, because I really did not grasp it (yeah, I must be dense).

On a side note, I know your English is really good Bernie, and I hope you are not thinking that I meant something out of it. The only thing I meant is that I got the negative connotative meaning of that word, and that I even took some time to check out some dictionaries for possible alternatives that didn't have such negative implications.

Again, I am not trying to create a flame war. I only want an answer. You know me. I am not the type to take offenses lightly, especially not on something that still burns when I think about it. So I have two ways to react: either I feel like shit and I keep it for myself, or I speak my mind freely. Lately I have decided to follow the second option, because I am fed up with just taking offenses and not stand up to them.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Jun 15, 2007 07:56 # 44739

null replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

?% | 2

I didn't predict a lonely death for him by the way.

No, that was ginsterbusch.

As for standing up... standing up to defend your ideals is good, and in no way did I mean to criticize you for that. However, even tho I can understand where you're coming from concerning the "pink-tinted obfuscation"...

  1. I'm not the original author and he's probably better than me at commenting his statements, but to the statement in question he added this -->

    Its not prejudice. Or should it be compulsory to add "In my experience" after everything we write now? [...] My apologies for appearing prejudiced.

    So, if, for example, the majority of girls he knows did tend to wrap everything up in pink-tinted obfuscation, this would be a perfectly legal statement even if you dissect it for hours with a copy of Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary and two linguists at your side.
    Besides, people state prejudices every day. I say stuff beginning with "you girls always ..." all the time. None of the girls present feel offended. (Well, they did object to the statement that the average woman's sense of direction is comparable to that of a comatose crow). And you know why? Because they know that I'm aware it's a prejudice, that I don't mean exactly what I'm saying and that I omit the "in my experience, this doesn't apply to all girls, yada yada" part for simplicity's sake or to tease them.

  2. Especially you a a student of languages should know how inexact a science it is: people often say things that, technically speaking, are not 100% correct; they omit little things; they use a wrong word or slightly incorrect grammar. All for the sake of briefness, to avoid awkward and lengthy explanations, and because the mistakes they make are commonly accepted. After all we talk to other human beings who are capable of filling the small gaps and put ambiguous or oversimplified statements of ours into the right context, not to computers that take every little bit of information and process it according to exact and invariable rules. Everybody does this, and if they say something that is technically incorrect but obviously wasn't meant that way, it's just not fair to wave a thick book and exclaim "but according to my dictionary you said..." - especially if they later explicitly stated that it wasn't meant that way.

  3. Or let's turn the tables for a second. You ranted about how 'males' keep 'females' at a distance and explained how women in the tech field are always discriminated by the males. I'm a male in the tech field and I know many other male techies who respect women. You offended me and my friends!! I'm gonna write a long long post about how intolerant an idiot you are!!one! Oh wait, I won't. I know that you didn't actually mean "every last man in the world, no exceptions whatsoever, discriminates against women". No offence taken in a rant of yours that technically could be understood as offensive.

  4. Even if the pink-tinted statement was meant to be a prejudice (which I don't think, see above, but I'll leave it to the author to clarify it further if he deems it necessary), was it really appropriate to cover it in several thousand characters' worth of lengthy rants about how the author is a misogynist, women are discriminated at your uni, one guy with a slightly less perfect test score got a job instead of a gal with a perfect score (which could have happened for perfectly legal reasons, you know; if all that counted was your test score then job interviews wouldn't be necessary at all), man/woman differences are overrated, there are too many pesticides in strawberries from Spain, in China a bag of rice not only fell over but also burst, and ...?
    (I mean, there was one response that contributed to the discussion - Hawkeye wanting to discuss the man/woman differences - and it practically got washed away by a crypto-feminist crusade to label somebody the enemy of all womankind based upon one statement that was neither particularly discriminating nor meant to be.)

I am not the type to take offenses lightly,

Well, maybe Deimos was telling the truth when he said it wasn't meant to offend.
Then you and ginsterbusch would have wasted all this holy fury on a non-issue and at the same time quite probably helped convince another one of the more interesting users that the core of the NAO community is becoming increasingly self-righteous and arrogant.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Jun 15, 2007.

Jun 15, 2007 11:15 # 44746

ginsterbusch *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

63% | 2

I didn't predict a lonely death for him by the way.

No, that was ginsterbusch.

Cynism created counter-cynism.

So should I have kept my mouth shut? No, I dont think so.
The proposition of my comment is: "Change your attitude, man! Live is good, if you work on it. Of course, you always may do the other way, be an emotional couch-potatoe und wait till the sun turns into a nova before doing something against that bad attitude. Not my problem, but yours :-P"

cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 15, 2007.

Jun 15, 2007 11:34 # 44748

null agrees...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

Live is good, if you work on it. Of course, you always may do the other way, be an emotional couch-potatoe and wait till the sun turns into a nova before doing something against that bad attitude. Not my problem, but yours

Oh, with that I can agree.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Sep 12, 2007 14:05 # 44929

zen *** replies...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

?% | 1

I think the biggest reason for this stereotype, that females "aren't into..." is social, and societal in inception. I don't believe that females are "naturally" less inclined towards sciences, maths, or other locigal pursuits--accounting, finance also included.
I think that the problem stems from the fact the men are prejudiced in their thinking about what a female is interested in, educationally speaking; which translates to a carreer path.
Women are pushed into the "safe" carreer choices, those containing the "pink frilly obfuscation", as you've so breveloquently stated.

As an employee of a largely male-dominated world of automotive repairs, I can tell you the reactions from a woman in "the fold." It's not expected to see a female working on cars, or selling service on them. Is it because a she can't do the job right? No, the famale can do the job as competently as any male--better usually.
It's the "auxilliary," external, negative influences that cause her troubles. The problem is that females in an so-called male dominated industry, don't get the same respect as their male counterparts. There is a prejudice that a female can't do work involving logic or other left-brain crap. This is societal conditioning.
This is the same conditioning, brain-washing mindset that pressures little girls to go into Home Economics, or Office Skills, and boys to go into Sports, Math, or Sciences--or hunting, for that matter. We like to keep our genders and gender identities separate and distinct. It gives us great comfort in being able to lable, identify, or classify others into neat categories we can then file away in our Rolodex of person archetypes.
The problem is that Nature, and life does not like, or allow for easy classification. Nature likes uncertain, and the undetermined. Nature "fills the gaps"; it hates a vaccuum. In otherwords, Nature will have its "pink-tinted obfuscation" attached to a more logical brain than yours.
And I'll tell you, if you could look past your condition, it might just be that that person is the right one for you.

Perhaps the problem is that as a self-identified techie, you have your own misconceptions about your place in the world. Being a geek, or called one, or considered one, even to a techie-girls mind, it doesn't exactly conjur the image of a passionate lover. That, after all, is what every chick is looking for in a guy she's dating--someone exciting, passionate, and perhaps spontaneous.

Honestly, most of the men techies I meet are just as much head-cases as females--it comes with the territory.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

Jun 10, 2007 10:08 # 44693

Orchid *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

73% | 2

I am in such a relationship and we managed to live together for years, so I think it works ;) I must admit that I spend way much time on my computer since I'm together with null than before. And I've learnt a lot, too. But still he's the one who's spending his whole job life and a lot of his freetime in front of that thing. It could be a little less time he spends before it but I understand he's got some clients in freetime, too, he has to work for.

I think the headline Techie/Non-Techie is also adaptive for several other things people are obsessed with. Say horse-fan/non-horse-fan or SETI-freak/non-SETI-freak, what do I know?

In no relationship people share every little interest. It's just impossible. Take music-taste. Everybody's so different in this, likes different songs and styles. So? That's good. A couple shouldn't be liek twins. That'd be sooo boring.

The most important thing is to be insightful and tolerant and empathising. Nerds who spend hours and hours in front of the machine won't keep the relationship for long and girlfriends who storm in every five minutes, won't either.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 12, 2007 14:33 # 44930

zen *** wants to note...

Re: Techie / Non-Techie Relationships

?% | 1

See, that's what I'm talking about. It's the same in every relationship--my Schweetie wants to tell me about his work every night, despite whether or not I'm interested.
Usually I'm not.
I have met a number of his co-workers either at his work, or though my work, or outside work. So even though I don't necessarily care about these people, I've met a number of them. I am compelled to listen for that alone.
There is another reason for listening: to show respect. I care for him, letting him vent about work, those characters.
He does the same, usually, for me, listening attentively, contributing as appropriate.

I absolutely agree about the non-/horse statement It logically applies to all interests, for all people.
Isn't "techie" more an occupation description, rather than a personal description?
I use my own example: I went to school for computers, worked-on, maintained, built them before that point, combining them with all sorts of electronics devices. Currently, I'm looking for a job working on and fixing computers, or audio/video editing, or some combination of the above. All, agreeably, technical things.
I could talk for hours about capturing, editing audio, video, and allll the attendant technical crap. I love doing this stuff, as a job and in my part time. He's the real question: Do I designate myself a Techie?

My view of Self, my personal identity will answer that question.
Conversely, that answer determines where, how I look for a mate, partner, friends.
The fact of the matter is I have so many other ways to identify myself, I don't need to call myself Techie, if I choose not to. Perhaps, if I'm looking for a female, my best bet is to NOT.
More to the point, I do not, usually, call myself a techie. I rightly could. To me, that's the means to the end.
I'd rather call myself a "musicie", or even "roadie", "woodsie", "camp firey", "racie" or some other designation of who I am seen through the lense of my main interest.

As an alternate thought, I involve myself so highly in the technical stuff, that perhaps I shouldn't be looking for someone interested in this same stuff. Perhaps her/his main technical interest should be limited to no more than courteously listening when I speak.
Perhaps it's a better idea to get out in the world and do stuff, besides working behind a screen, or some heat-producing electronical device.
Those are the means to a different end.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

This post was edited by zen on Sep 12, 2007.

Oct 12, 2007 20:15 # 45089

Jaz *** replies...

Respect yourself and you'll be fine

?% | 1

I wouldn't like to limit myself to dating nerdy women only. There are too few of them (surfing the interweb doesn't count), and the idea that you're already like 60% compatible only because she's into computers is wrong. They can be as great or as messed up as the next girl. Personally, of all women I know there is no visible correlation between their geekdom and their degree of wonderfulness.

I think it's important that when you get together with a nongeek girlfriend, she respects that your job/hobby is great and important to you. If you ever feel you have to justify or apologize to her for being a nerd, or doing what you do, consider if you don't deserve better than that.

That last thing took me a while to realize: Don't ever justify, deny or apologize for what you do or like only because you feel it will make you more accepted. Contrary to what one could believe as the friendly neighborhood nerd, doing that doesn't help your relationship, or make women feel more attracted to you. Quite the opposite, showing insecurity like that while getting to know someone is a huge turn off, so don't do it.

You can be open about your nerdiness and pick up women just fine, just learn to be talkative and know how to convey the interesting aspects of your job/hobby. You wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't cool, right? So don't deny it, ever. If she has a problem with that, think about what that tells you about her personality as whole. She's not worth your time, just move on.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

This post was edited by Jaz on Oct 12, 2007.


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