Reading Love and Lifesense

Sep 26, 2009 08:05 # 46542

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating

?% | 2

Well, what can I tell you Ginster? My personal convictions are that an environment with two people of the same sex is not good for child raising, and I did explain why. The reason is related to the contribution of the mother and the father can give to the child; a contribution that cannot be given in the same way by parents of the same sex, because we are by nature different. I am not talking about love and feelings, because like I said I think that there is more to it than just that. Then Zen talked about abusive parents... well a gay/lesbian couple can be abusive as well, or am I wrong? Every person on this planet could be a badass; it's not that all hetero couples are abusive. The best environment for a child to be raised in is made by a man and a woman who are NOT abusive. This is what I am talking about... I am not even considering abusive parents, because such people shouldn't have kids either. And yes, I said that it is just as bad for a child to be raised by a single parent or by divorced parents. I stated that before.

Ginster, if Italy was the land of fascism, Germany was the land of nazism, which is even WORSE. So don't even get into this. At least our Mussolini guy did something good for my country, before being corrupted by that crazy Austrian guy.
Catholicism... good point. I am Catholic, but was never raised Catholic. I decided to be baptized out of my own will when I was 8 years old, but I didn't do anything else more than that. Sure I have gone to a Catholic school for 13 years, because it was the best school in town, and they did probably try to brainwash me, but they failed miserably. I don't set foot in a church unless I am obliged to, and generally speaking I hate religion and I hate the church.

But let's not turn this into a political post, shall us? Otherwise you might realize that I am wearing black pants and black shirt today ;)

In short: considering that I live in a democratic country and nation (if we do consider Europe as a whole finally once and for all), I will agree to whatever is decided by the majority of the people. This means that if I am called to vote on whether gays should have the right to adopt a child I will likely vote no, unless something happens that makes me see the other side. But if yes wins, then peace out and let it be. I am not likely to fight for gay rights, simply because it's something that I don't understand... I am sorry, but I just don't get it... I might even consider the gay cause if then I didn't see clear examples of well I don't even know exactly what it is during the gay pride: men wearing women dresses and talking in falsetto voice just to be noticed. Sorry... I don't think it is a matter of gay or non gay, but this is just not right. In other words: I am not going to fight for their rights, but this doesn't exclude the possibility of them having the same exact rights; if this happened... well peace out, I am not going to be the one saying no you can't have that.

And all of you who are so liberal and non discriminatory... have you manifested for the rights of gays? If yes, then kudos to you. Otherwise I really don't think you should call me names like racist or other things like that, because you're just as equal to me. We're all good in words... give me facts.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Sep 28, 2009 00:53 # 46550

zen *** replies...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating

?% | 1

We're all good in words... give me facts.

This is a very funny, ironic statement to hear coming from you. The fact is, you have yet to provide any "facts." You have introduced a whole bunch of rhetoric into this discussion. You've introduced a lot of wishful-thinking and belief into this topic. All those things you've tried to pass-off as fact, are, in fact, devoid of fact.
I think we all can concede that I know more gay people, and gay couples than you do. I've had much more experience in this topic than you do. I have personal stories and actual events which dispel the blithe propaganda you consider truth. I've been consistently giving facts in my replies.

well a gay/lesbian couple can be abusive as well, or am I wrong? Every person on this planet could be a badass

Yes you are wrong. My experience shows that as an un-true statement. I mean if "badass" means a guy who beats his wife and kids, on the face of that, that's not a true statement. Statistically speaking, that's not true. Actually, in real life speaking, that's not true either. I suppose in a survival setting, anyone might chose to kill instead of be killed, but that's not a normal "everyday" thing, is it?
If you want to talk facts, try this: all the abusive family situations I've ever seen, or heard of, were hetro. I'm sure the only examples of abusives relationships/family situations are hetro. I'm willing to wager you don't know of any abusive gay couple(s).
A conservative estimate puts my acquaintence with gay couples at 20. Of those 20 or so couples, I didn't see any signs that they would be bad parents, not the bad that I'm familiar with. This also brings up a parallel issue. Not all those 20 couples would want to adopt. I'll put it at about 30 percent of those gay couples would want to raise the traditional family. 20% would be lesbian, and 10% would be the guys. This is just my reading of the group, I haven't asked all of them their thoughts on kids, so much as a "gay" opinion on kids. Maybe up to 40% of lesbian couples would want to have kids, or adopt.
There are "badass" gay men and women. They usually fall into one, or a few of these camps: (1)drag queens (usually), (2)lesbians (in general), (3)the addict/alcoholic (of course), (4)Dom Top/Masters (sometimes). Except for lesbians, as previously mentioned, these groups aren't the familying, having kids types.
There's also another issue altogether, the scientific reality. I'm a huge fan of biology, anatomy, learning about the body. One of the things we learn in gender studies is that this magic substance that all men have, testosterone, does some interesting things. Of the things it promotes: aggression and sex drive are the most important to our discussion. Straight men have a higher degree of testosterone than do homosexual men. It's an over abundence of the hormone, coupled with ignorance that leads to abuse. While gays aren't immune from ignorance, generally that lack of testosterone keeps them pretty mellow.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

Sep 25, 2009 20:38 # 46535

zen *** replies...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating vs. adopting

?% | 1

Why? Because it would create this kid several psychological damages; he would continuously make comparisons between his situation and the situation of his friends who have a father and a mother, and not two parents of the same sex

Don't forget about making comparisions with the kids who've been divorced, as well as comparing his family with the rich kids, and with the poor kids.

This is not called discrimination; it's just that men and women are different, and they contribute to raising a child in different ways that are unique.

Right. And due to what you were saying, some "fathers" are none better than sperm donors taking little interest in the development of the child. Such is my case: my folks were "married" for a long time, but in name only. Th love, magic, spark, whatever you call it had long since evaporated. Living with them was really hell. He was gone for long periods of time, and when he was there was an absolute drunken, violent, abusive prick. Mom had mental issues. I don't recall any significant time together which did not result in all sorts of stuff flying across the room.
Neither of them were fit parents, yet somehow that is better than two men or two women raising me and my sisters? If a hetro relationship is automatically better (as you suggest), then how come my sister said nothing at my mother's funeral? She said she couldn't think of anything nice to say about her at her service. That is the alleged "better life" you advocate.

But kids would probably have even more problems if they were raised by two people of the same sex: they would be teased in school - and don't kid yourself, you know that they would, and kids are quite mean to each other - they would see their friends with parents of different sexes, and they would automatically feel that they are different, because they don't have what normal kids have.

More of that straw argument. Sure kids are teased for being different. That's no different form my work, or hanging out with my friends. I was raised in a hetro environment, and I got teased, so what. All you can hope to do is keep the kids from beating each other up, regardless of their perceived differences.

Again this is not discrimination, it is only common sense.

If common sense really was, then everyone would have it. What's obvious to you only comes across as discrimination to me.

Put a child that was abused or abandoned in a family made of two gays and/or two lesbians, and then we'll see how that child will react.

Funny you should mention that. That exact thing happened to my friend/ex-partner. He managed to divest himself, at 15, from his abusive hetro- family life. He managed to find a homosexual couple to take him in. Wouldn't you know, there was nothing but love, warmth. Sure his benefactor could be a little verbally mean, overall he'll tell you it was an marked imporavement He only wishes that he'd have come across that earlier in his life. As a result, my ex- is very well adjusted, and holds a regular job, etc.
I, on the other hand, who had quite a horrid, abusive upbringing, with no gay couple intervention, eventually turned into a criminal.
My real life, actual experiences belie what you assume.

I think I can safely assume that you don't have any actual, real life facts, or personal anecdotes to back up any of these adoption theories you spout.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

This post was edited by zen on Sep 25, 2009.

Sep 28, 2009 22:33 # 46553

jael *** has a suggestion...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating vs. adopting

65% | 3

(maybe in interjecting a bit too late and if it's already said, disregard this comment)

You guys were talking about hetero vs homo couples in terms of giving the full care and influences with both male and female parties.

Now it doesn't apply to all couples but 'most' gay couples I've met distinctly have more butch and one feminine one, even if it is to a slight degree. (In both gays and lesbians) so technically if you look at it in terms of raising a child, he/she is getting a both masculine and feminine traits. (Not that it really matters, I was raised by my mother who has a very feminine environment and turned out a tom-boy)

Right.. i just contradicted myself... well my point simply was.

If you have a loving a caring partnership, anyone can be raised an nurtured regardless of sex/gender.

Besides, you marry who you want to, live with who makes you happy. In the end that's what counts. Not politics.. love does.

I sound sooo cheesy, no?

*insert something profound/witty/humorous here*

Sep 28, 2009 23:08 # 46554

zen *** replies...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Parental traits

93% | 3

Spot on. You hit the nail on the head.
When my mom was alone, she had to be both parents. She had a varying degree of success in being both "sides."

I read what you said, and I think about my classes in childhood development. We all start out as an indeterminate blob of goo untill our dna starts kicking in, and a gender gets "assigned", but essentially the amino acid building blocks are asexual, and any person could be either sex. Some people are intersexed, but that's a different, but related discussion.
Within any given adult is both sides of the coin. That's why I, as a grown male, have nipples. Granted they don't function, but I still have some natural estrogen in my system, etc., etc.
Heck, who says that a man couldn't be nurturing, compassionate, supportive, all those traits a woman could be, but also teach the kid to play ball, or defend himself, whatever?
I personally know a few hetro- fathers who are, well, wusses, but they still provide a nice family for the wife and kid. So what the father can't play ball or do physical things, hiking, hunting, or other stereotypical masculine things.

Doesn't this whole issue revolve around our stereotypes, around pre-judging of what makes a true "man" and a true "woman": gender roles, as it were? It is true, that when it comes to raising kids that men and woman can't do the same things for a kid: Nursing/lactating is the only thing that comes to my mind.
It is true that not every male can give the support and other stuff that a woman will bring, but then you don't get that naturally from every woman, do you? As I've already shown, one doesn't.

So then the pendulum of our polemics swings the other way, and we'll get a question like this: Oh, well, if it's a man who's substituting for a woman, being supportive, listening, reaffirming of the kids emotions, etc. (i.e., the traditional "mom" role) then that will push him into being effeminate, or "turn" the kid (assumedly a male) gay?
To which I say: it's you breeders who are producing gay people. Don't blame that on us who were born this way.

Besides, you marry who you want to, live with who makes you happy. In the end that's what counts. Not politics.. love does.

I sound sooo cheesy, no?

Yes, you do. That's a very sweet thing to say. I mean, that's what it's all about.
In the end analysis, all that ever may be important about our lives is that we loved, loved very deeply another.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

This post was edited by zen on Sep 28, 2009.

Sep 24, 2009 14:27 # 46524

ginsterbusch *** mindlessly drivels...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating

?% | 1

"I think butt-fucking is disgusting. Let's make it illegal!"

"I think butt-fucking is fun. That can't be legal! Let's make it illegal!"


cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

Sep 26, 2009 09:34 # 46543

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating

85% | 5

Society has pushed marriage for a long time. It's like getting baptised almost. Imagine a time before baptism was common. You hear through the grapevine that your best friend, Joe, got baptised, which was a particular thing and truly showed dedication to God. Well *you* go to church too, don't you? *You* are dedicated to God as well and you've done *many* more things for the church than Joe has, so why should Joe be seen as superior in the eyes of God and me not? Therefore, what do you do? You get baptised too. Before you know it, baptism becomes something you have to do if you're not a heretic or at the least want to be shunned by the village.

Marriage is the same way in my opinion. It initially had such value as a true commitment to your partner because it was something you would do to show that in the eyes of God, you were going to do everything it took to make it work. Today, if you don't get married, then pretty soon your mother starts calling you asking when her first grandkids are going to pop out. It's not considered normal to not get married. And as such, I'm almost convinced that most people nowadays who get married do so due to the pressures of society rather than their true commitment to one another. It's almost like the ultimate gesture or ultimate gift of love for how it's viewed. Opening doors is nice, and receiving chocolates is nice too, though what I'd really like is a gold ring on my finger and my fiance to propose on one knee...

zen, essentially everything you said is true in practice, though the fact that a man and woman can reproduce is not the only reason for this conviction that it can only be a man and a woman, but for the religious aspect as well. Though I have to disagree on your point of not being considered cheating if a husband goes with another man. Being true and loyal to your partner whether it be the opposite sex or the same sex is the definition of marriage in my opinion, and being with someone who isn't your partner is not being loyal.

I believe same-sex marriage should be on the same level as a traditional marriage as far as rights go, including alimony or whatever situations which may arise from a divorce from such a marriage. If I could change one thing, however, it'd be that it not be called "marriage" by the government because of its religious implications. Call it "spousal partnership"; whatever you want, just don't call it marriage.

Those who reject the idea of a spousal partnership can join the skinheads and the klu klux klan for white supremecy for as much logic as you can derive in an argument with them about why they feel as they do. I may not personally like the idea, but if I have no reasons to say to the contrary, it'd just be me forcing baseless ideas on the masses. My beliefs cannot be driven by emotion but by logic.

If the world should blow itself up,the last audible voice would be an expert saying it can't be done

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Sep 26, 2009.

Sep 26, 2009 15:55 # 46548

ginsterbusch *** wants to note...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating

Dammit. I wanted to give your post a "EXCELLENT" rating, but slipped on the damn mouse wheel, so it went to "nice" :-(

Someone please correct this by rating his post "EXCELLENT".
Or @ Null: Change it (if you're able to).

thanks in advance,
cu, w0lf.

beards are cool. every villain has one!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Sep 26, 2009.

Nov 23, 2009 12:41 # 46622

Ameli1162 * replies...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating

68% | 4


You use a lot of "I believe" and "I think" and "It's just not right" in your responses. Did it ever occur to you that what you do not understand and what does not correlate with your religious beliefs is not necessarily wrong? Instead of what is "right" for you, why not step outside of yourself and allow other people to do what is "right" for them? You do seem like a bit of a meddler. And I say this with all due respect, but I think you would do well to take some time focusing on the "plank in your own eye," the same plank that is blinding you to your hypocrisy and ignorance.


Nov 30, 2009 21:24 # 46628

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Gay Marriage -- Procreating

?% | 2

Ameli... are you out of it?! Do you at least know what meddler means? Because it doesn't seem exactly appropriate.
Secondly, I am not a hypocrite at all; if anything I am quite coherent in my behaviors in respect to what I think.
Yes, my posts are full of I think or I believe, because here we were discussing something also based on what we think. I don't have the presumption to know the universal truth. Thanks to your insight on my humble self though; I will probably print out your post and use it to clean my ass!

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

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